Ok I see, thanks for clarifying. For some erroneous reason, I thought P-subs were forums with specif types of P, just less organized then actual real P sites. Don't know where I constructed this idea lol. "P-subs" as P substitutes, makes sense now ! I've been guilty of this too, google images can be tricky. I agree with you, it's definitely middle circle type of stuff, for people like us who are trying to stay away from actual P. Congrats on deleting the chat program. That's a sign of commitment.