When quitting porn asks you to re-evaluate "sex positivity"

Discussion in 'Pornography Addiction' started by DoneAtLast, Sep 25, 2020.

  1. DoneAtLast

    DoneAtLast Well-Known Member

    Interesting that you hadn't heard it before. Yeah, without the baggage of how the term gets abused, I'd say I'm 100% sex positive. The issue is that it becomes this wild card that is pulled out against any argument that tries to have a nuanced discussion about sexuality and to justify pretty much anything. It raises a good point. Maybe we just need to reclaim the term instead of disparaging it.

    I probably fall between you two. Part of why I write this is because I noticed from pretty much the first time I ever came to these boards that lots of guys wanted to quit porn in order for their lives to better resemble porn. They wanted to stop watching the videos of 3-somes with whips and masks so they could themselves have a 3-some with whips and masks, without stopping to think whether their desires were informed by years of porn use or not. Obviously it is very important for a beginner to consider. That said, I see where Bilbo is coming from. You can't throw all of this at someone who has just barely figured out that porn is not the best thing in the world for them. That is just way too much for someone to take in. Usually if someone posts asking my advice, I just tell them to keep an open mind about what sexuality might look like post-porn. After all, it isn't for me to tell them what it is supposed to be, but I have no problem telling anyone that it sure as heck ain't what is in porn.

    Agreed! I do think there is a slippery slope regarding how we perceive others and how they dress; ultimately I am the owner of my own eyes. I've had enough platonic friendships with women to know that it can be very hard for them. If they have a couple God given curves to them and people stare, they can suddenly feel like it is their duty to hide it and figuring out how to dress themselves day-in/day-out becomes a nightmare. One woman I knew who was a tad on the busty side used to complain that she loved sun dresses but could never wear them with the sort of bra that she needed. Young women sometimes end up with back problems because they habitually slouch to hide their boobs. Of course, I know your posts well enough to know that this isn't how you're thinking, but it is worth mentioning. I run in to extreme examples of this in religious circles and it kinda drives me nuts. It is like they think that every woman is actively trying to seduce them. To your larger point I agree - cheap sexual stimulation sells. We've known that for decades. What is really weird is how elusive real sexuality truly is. When was the last time you saw a sex scene in a movie that was as clumsy, sloppy and kinda funny as it is in reality? Maybe in some comedies, but not often.

    People say smart things on the subject frequently, but it never cuts through all the noise. Maybe giving entire generations of young men limp willies is the only thing that will get through. If I had my way, I'd like to see masculinity reinvented. I'd like to see a return of the "gentleman" and the elimination of the "bro". More Jimmy Stewart and Cary Grant and less Logan Paul. Good men don't repress their sexuality, they simply take custody of it. If that happens, then the media and everything else will follow, but if we try changing the media without changing dudes, I'm not sure we'll get anywhere.

    Nailing it as always.
     
  2. Thelongwayhome27

    Thelongwayhome27 Well-Known Member

    Well this is the thing though. Don't you think sometimes real sex can be very passionate, steamy and not clumsy ?

    But I very much agree with everything you've said !

    One big realization for me lately has been that I need to be comfortable being just friends with girls more. This allows me to look at the whole thing from a whole different perspective and takes a lot of pressure I was putting on myself without totally realizing it. So I'm glad you mentioned that you have learned about girls by having genuine friendships with them. I think despite being a pretty good guy essentially I have a problem understanding they're perspective objectively. Which is why I often assumed things or had resentment. The tricky part that kept this in my blindside is that I was also acting like a "nice guy" around them - so I did not realize that I did not see them sufficiently like humans. Deep down, I thought I was this perfect guy and could not understand why girls don't jump all over me. But seeing what I do wrong, in a non bashing way to myself but an objective way, is very empowering and offers new territories to explore ! :) I think the next challenge is to be able to be friends with them, genuinely, but to not totally disown my sexuality when there is a girl I have a romantic interest in. This will be tricky to learn but I think this could be the way for balance.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2020
  3. DoneAtLast

    DoneAtLast Well-Known Member

    Fun fact: if you look up "friend zone" in the dictionary, you'll see my picture.

    In all seriousness, while that has happened to me, in many of my friendships with women I have been 100% okay with a non-romantic/non-sexual friendship. A few of those friendships continued after they got married and had kids. I owe 90% of what I know about women to those friendships. I'm sure plenty of bros would have mocking names for a guy like me, but I don't care. The super power I've gained is to recognize 50% of the human population as complicated, interesting human beings instead of a bunch of squishy body parts that are fun to grope.

    It depends on the expectations. If someone has media portrayals, both porn and non-porn in their mind, then likely nothing will seem like it isn't sloppy and clumsy. You can't smell or taste another person in a movie, for example. You aren't close enough to see acne scars or hear a stomach growling. It is one of those "rewiring" things, I think. I often think of the "strawberry test" for people who eat too many added sugars. If you eat a lot of candy and drink a lot of soda, a strawberry will taste tart and you'll pucker a bit. If you "rewire" and cut out sugars, eventually the strawberry will taste amazingly sweet, even preferable to a bag of Skittles or a Sprite. I've never been in the military, but strangely enough a lot of military guys I know like war movies, and most/all will tell you that none were even remotely realistic until the 2000s with movies like Saving Private Ryan or Hurt Locker. I can't verify this of course. Neither of those things are perfect analogies, but hopefully I'm communicating it well enough. Maybe in the abstract an erotic scene could capture some realism, but I haven't seen anything that does that.
     
  4. Bilbo Baggins

    Bilbo Baggins Active Member

    Good one. Freud wrote somewhere that civilization has weakened our libido because of the proliferation of intense odors (he probably referred to all smells produced by the industry and that are around us both inside our houses and outside), thus rendering our sense of smell desensitized. He claims that smells are an important part of arousal. If we think of animals, it makes sense, of course.

    For us guys who grew up on porn, it’s even worse than for the rest of the population. What is supposed to turn us on doesn’t do shit, and in the worst cases even repulses us.

    Still a long way to go...
     
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  5. Thelongwayhome27

    Thelongwayhome27 Well-Known Member

    Sounds like such a person would be over focusing on the wrong things during sex. And definitely being way too much in his own head instead of letting go into the moment.

    It's not easy to do for sure, but after practice one can let go and no the last thing during sex you will hear is the stomach growling ?

    I've had sex with my ex hundreds of times and I can't remember one such instance ???

    But yes I agree that media over portrays sex as being always perfect. To a certain extent. And maybe we don't have a balanced view.

    I'll also add that I first had sex at 20 (after watching a lot of P since I was 14 - I guess I'm lucky here that I did not start earlier - but I did evolve into an (at times) all night P binger before I had sex - and I was PMOing maybe on avrage 8-12 times per week during those years). Then a long pause and I had sex another time at like 21. Then a long pause and I started having sex with my ex girlfriend at 21. The first times with her were definitely a little clumsy. But I was not disgusted or anything ... Neither by her nor me. I felt a bit embarrassed that I was clumsy but before we got to the sex we had built enough intimacy and I knew she didn't (I trusted her by then). We could talk and stuff. Or laugh. What makes it that you are not disgusted when the real thing happens ? Actual libido and wanting to make love to her. The precise element in us that makes us get it off to P. That's why we should not cut off the whole thing. Some of that is good and healthy. It's just the place we go to get it (P) that is not the right place. But the desire is correct and something to be trusted. That is, in essence, what sex positivity, means to me.

    We had passionate and beautiful sex after that many times. Without stomach growling noises lol. Or if they were growling we sure were focusing on other sensations.

    You're basically saying : look when you eat good food please focus on the fact that you are going to fart and take a shit later. Can you still enjoy the food then ??? Or like, okay let's all sit around a table eating the best quality haute cuisine but we'll also put some cameras in our digestive tracts and plug that up to a screen over there and while we're eating that haute cuisine we'll all look at those screens together. Surely the experience of that haute cuisine will be affected by that. And why on Earth would we do that when eating good food is a natural pleasure :D It's better to learn how to eat the good food and focus on the palate. And yes while one is enjoying that good food and having those sublime experiences some pretty "uglier" (quotes because it's not ugly in any way, it's just from our subjective perspective so) stuff is happening in the belly. Now of course if one has reached a very advanced level with his soul and he does not care for sensual pleasure and wants to experience life in all its forms always meditating on the less "glamour" aspect of things, by all means. I think some Buddhist monks do that if I'm not mistaken. In fact, I've herd the advice to fight urges is to meditate on the decay of the body and stuff like that.

    I'm also baffled when people on here say all porn is fake depiction of sex. What about amateur porn ? There is porn out there that shows sex in it's pure and simple form. It shows one perspective sure (nice frame, light) - (instead of focusing on idk the belly button lol or the scar ....) - but why is that not real ? No matter how a thing is shown it will be shown through a "frame" (this goes for any perspective on things) - so may as well choose a nice frame, or one that is helpful during said moment.

    Maybe it's because, despite all the abuses I've done with my porn life, I was (lucky to) never be into the "extreme fake porn stuff" (women with huge inflated breasts, strange make up and all that stuff). This never actually turned me on.

    I do have my fetishes and I have escalated into certain extremes but not the fake porn stuff. I don't wanna say porn hasn't fucked me up - on top of all the emotional problems it has caused me and my isolation.

    Good sex is not about expectations. It's about being able to abandon yourself fully to that moment and leave expectations way behind. Done well, it is simply a form of mediation. A pretty fun one at it ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
  6. Thelongwayhome27

    Thelongwayhome27 Well-Known Member

    Sorry if this is a little off topic but having re read this part of your post made me think the same effect/idea/principle can also be applied to how some people develop social anxiety. When I was young all the media I watched (TV, movies) showed people who were of course very self confident and self assured. You can say this as a general rule for movies. If you think about it realistically, characters in movies are much more calm and collected (whatever crazy stuff happens to them) then in real life. Rarely do we see more subtle and authentic portrayals of socially awkward people. I think this may have improved to a certain degree lately but I think in the 1990s especially being cool was a big thing on TV shows. I'm pretty sure this may have contributed to placing very high expectations on myself of how cool I should be at school and be overly critical of myself when I did not meet those standards. And of course probably many people struggled with this as well, but no one said anything and played it cool so to speak. As cool as they could.

    I added it because I think it's a similar principle to the idea that unbalanced portrayal of "perfect sex" in media messes people up in a similar way when it comes to having sex.

    I'll also add this here since I forgot to address it in my previous post. That's pretty cool ! The more I thought about what the "friend zone" means I would think it's guys who are stuck in platonic relationships while they overly want to get in the girl's pants. In other words they are stuck there and would definitely not want to be there. But a guy who genuinely is interested in being friends with a girl, even if he would have other kinds of interests for her (non platonic) but is at peace being only friends with her, that's not the dreaded "friend zone" we hear so much about.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
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  7. DoneAtLast

    DoneAtLast Well-Known Member

    Exactly. I think "perfect sex" is an issue, but so are the peripheral experiences involved. I guess it goes back to the whole bit about it being another human being with a mind, body and soul and not just a bunch of fun squishy body parts that you get to grope. Of course, some people get into porn and lean in to that sort of thing... "amateur porn" seemed to embrace a lot of the weirdness, but I'll leave it at that for the sake of preventing triggers. I guess my point was if you live life only understanding sex as it appears on screens and you get to point-blank range of another human being, there are going to be surprises and not everything is necessarily uber-erotic. I'm not necessarily saying that it is devoid of real pleasure and is just a gross process, that is of course false.

    Yeah, I hear you completely. I've had that cross my mind and have definitely seen that behavior in others. Personally I think it is a slippery slope to embracing an alpha-male or pick-up-artist mindset. I think it is also implies that a woman's friendship is only valuable insofar as it might get someone laid. Years ago in the early days of YouTube someone made a video on a college campus asking both men and women if they'd sleep with their opposite-sex friends if asked. Most women said "ew, no!" and had a hard time explaining it, while guys said, "really? Well... yeah, sure!". The friend zone is definitely real in that there are real barriers between friendship and romantic relationships for women but for men it is potentially fluid I guess. Every guy is different. I'm sure plenty are just playing a waiting game/numbers game, and figuring if they keep enough women in their social circle, eventually they'll get a hook up out of it. Personally? I think being in a mindset where I can only have women around me if I get to rip their clothes off at some point is just not a good head space. That is just asking for anxiety and disappointment. Lots of women could be my friend, very few could be a lover, and that is just how life is.

    That's really interesting. It is funny that "Freudianism" is assumed to be one set of ideas, but what Freud actually said much of the time was something different. It makes sense, you can find references to smells and tastes in romantic stories and poetry that pre-date the industrial era, but it doesn't come up as much now. I tended to assume it was because TV made us biased towards audio/visual stimulus, but maybe Freud has a point. He was from an era of big stinky cigars and over the top perfumes, and as you mentioned, the industrial smells would've been high, too.
     
  8. Thelongwayhome27

    Thelongwayhome27 Well-Known Member

    @DoneAtLast - thank you for your response. I think it's helping me to clarify some things for myself.

    What bothers me sometimes is how girls say that but they would sleep with another guy pretty easily even without commitment.

    I think I may harbor some resentment there and perhaps it's hitting some kind of spot inside me.

    Perhaps I harbor resentment and envy at not being the kind of guy that attracts a woman purely on the physical aspect of things. Maybe I have to come to terms I'm not that guy and that's fine.
     
  9. DoneAtLast

    DoneAtLast Well-Known Member

    This is interesting. I think the whole "In-Cel" meme that sprung up a few years ago painted a very one-dimensional picture of people who had any objection to men doing stuff like that. We can either object on A) pure envy, wishing we could have the girl instead of the other guy (the pejorative incel cariacture), B) a world philosophy that ensures distribution of sexual connections (the incel chief complaint) or C) On grounds of virtue, or justice and/or respect for the women, and if a guy is "friends" with lots of women in order to work their way down their drawers, that is just manipulative. I'm not talking about a stepping stone in relationship building, but purely in a way where the friendship in and of itself has no value to the man. I don't think A is an acceptable answer (Jordan Peterson might say so as well), B is potentially worth discussing, but C is where my own attention is grabbed, and appealing to an innate sense of virtue is ultimately a good thing, but you guys probably know I'm a bit of a classicist on stuff like that, anyway.

    No idea what you look like, but lately I've found that looks are both important and non-important. I have some neck/back issues and can slouch terribly (think "nerd neck" forward head posture) and in the past couple weeks I've been doing exercises to get rid of it, and am standing with my shoulders farther back and my head straighter. The difference in attention from women is huge. For a while I'd have hunched days and straight days, and I could definitely tell how I was standing based on how I was looked at. I could even tell by seeing the exact same women at stores or coffee shops and their responses would be different. It helps that I'm built in such a way that my appearance changes very dramatically between these two postures, but it is worth noting that it isn't immutable.
     
  10. Pete McVries

    Pete McVries Well-Known Member

    Women can be very deceptive when it comes to showing their attraction towards someone. You not noticing them being attracted to you doesn't equal them being actually not interested.

    Moreover, imagine being an attractive woman for a second. Can you imagine how exhausting it can get to get interested looks/lustful comments day in and out from strange men? I think, for many of them it's not as much fun as a man might think. Therefore, at least that's my simple conclusion, many women naturally adapt some kind of blinders look, where they often don't look you in the eye if you are passing by for example or if you are in a bar or so because they do not want to give you the impression to invite you and spare yourself and themselves the embarrassing rejection.

    And if that's the modus operandi of many women, it might even be difficult to switch to a different mode, if they are actually interested in someone and want to make a move towards their desired object. You might even possibly give many women too much credit, if you think the majority of them are mistresses of seduction ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  11. Bilbo Baggins

    Bilbo Baggins Active Member

    Ahah, thanks, that one was funny. I relate to this, though for me it would be the ‘’old arthritic man’’. That being said, sorry that you have neck issues...
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  12. DoneAtLast

    DoneAtLast Well-Known Member

    Heh, thanks. Honestly, I think most people do these days, we just don't notice it because it is so common. It is from constant screen time, we're always either leaning forward or looking down. My job involves a lot of leaning over so I get a double whammy.
     
  13. positivef

    positivef Active Member

    I notice most office workstations are only set up for shorter people. I'm reasonably tall and to have good posture most monitors can't be adjusted to be high enough, and seats only just go high enough. Laptops without separate screen/keyboard also prevent good ergonomics[​IMG]
     
  14. Living

    Living Well-Known Member

    Same here. I've always had a hollow back and I have also developed a nerd neck over the years. Over the last couple weeks this has been something I have been working on. Been doing some yoga exercises on a daily basis that targets these issues and also bought a proper desk chair and a wedged wobble cushion. All that sitting behind a desk is really not good for you, so I think it's worthwhile to ways to deal with that. As for how women look at that: I think this is perhaps a bigger thing then we realize. When you look at someone with a proper posture it's easy to see that person as confident. I don't think that's because that person is confident per sé, but because inconfident people often adept there posture to get noticed less easy. So while nerd neck might solely be due to ergonomics, it might nonetheless send a link to people around you that you are less confident and perhaps don't want to get noticed. To most people that's not all that appealing. And it's also less inviting. A correct posture is very open, while when your head is tilted forward you are closing up.

    Besides that, when you are less confident, working on your posture might as well be a way to work on your confidence. Having a correct posture is more open and not only physical, but also psychological, it makes you vulnerable. I don't mean that in a person talking to about his/her issues to everybody kind of way, but in the same way that in some birds the brightest males get the best/most females because they put themselves out there and still survive. So while you might be very confident about yourself, when you work on your posture you give yourself and others a signal that you feel like you have the right to put yourself out there. And while it might not be your goal, I think this will impact your confidence in a positive way too. Ergo: fake it till you make it:)

    Oh, and @Pete McVries is spot on both points.
     
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  15. Living

    Living Well-Known Member

    This is exactly the point. It's no so much about wether passionate sex does happen too or that there are people that have sex in the same way you see in porn, but it's about a clear difference in norm. The kind of sex you see in media is often a very limited and idealized kind of sex. And I get that, because that's the way to get most people to watch. But being confronted with that over and over again it becomes very easy to believe that there is something totally wrong with our own sex lives. After all, we get confronted with the sex lives in media a lot more often than we get confronted with the sex lives of real people (at least I do), so it's no wonder that that's what we compare it with. And we live in a day and age were a lot of people have the believe that life is highly mallable and that if we can't live up to the norm it has to be fixed. We see that on here too in all the self-help we use and how a lot of us constantly focus on self-improvement instead of self-acceptance. But life is not as mallable as we think and especially when the norm you compare your own live with is far from realistic that will lead to a shitload of negative feelings and frustration. And if you ask me this sexualization of the media or society in general is a very serious problem.
     
  16. Pete McVries

    Pete McVries Well-Known Member

    Very good point!

    Moreover, you mustn't forget that even amateur p (which is one of the most watched and therefore profitable genres) is highly staged. Even if the people shown are not dolled up to the max, the creators only show what they want you to see (or hear for that matter). On top of that, just by using conventional camera techniques, you can manipulate the picture that is presented to you by a huge margin. I once read that in the LOTR movies, they mostly only used distance techniques in order to make Gandalf appear bigger than Frodo when they were in Bilbo's home. It is very easy to forget that. Just like trash tv doesn't show you "real" people, amateur p doesn't give you a glimpse into the private and personal sex life of "real" people.
     
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  17. Living

    Living Well-Known Member

    And besides that I think we like to see amateur porn as more real, but let's be honest: when putting a porn video on the internet is way beyond the norm, why would we see people that do so as normal? And I don't mean normal in terms of value, but in a more literal sense. The fact that a couple is putting video's on the internet while you, as well as the fast majority of people you know, would never do so says something about amateur porn. While I find particularly women that do stuff like that highly arrousing and I sometimes even think about how hot it would be to have a GF that would do such things, when I get back to reality in terms of own my sexual norms I would have to conclude that amateur porn is not in any way realistic. Amateur porn is not a realistic depiction of general sexual norms, but a depiction of a group of people that (at least in certain ways) fall well outside of our general sexual norms.
     
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  18. DoneAtLast

    DoneAtLast Well-Known Member

    Reading your post, it made me think of all of the basic cable reality shows that popped up in the late 2000s (think Pawn Stars, any number of cooking shows) that would show "real" conversations of people behind the scenes that were always painful to watch; they couldn't act, nor could they be non-actors with cameras and producers all around. Sometimes it was scripted, sometimes it was unscripted, but the fact that a camera crew was there made it sure that it couldn't have been even close to "real" if they wanted it to be. Maybe that's what "amateur" porn is... it is the reality TV of the porn world. It isn't obviously scripted like old VHS movies or obviously exaggerated like a lot of contemporary porn videos which give me serious WWF vibes, but still bearing very little resemblance to reality. Yet, its proximity to what people want to think of as real makes it somehow comforting and alluring. People watched the reality shows because it made them think they were encountering real people. The needle may have been closer to "reality" for them than watching Star Trek, but calling it realistic would be a bridge too far. Some of those shows pulled off looking real for a season or two, but eventually it became painfully obvious what it really was as it would go on.
     
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  19. Bilbo Baggins

    Bilbo Baggins Active Member

    I can’t find the quote, I think it was in the discussion but I don’t see it... If I remember correctly, @DoneAtLast somewhere asked this question: is sex a mean or an end? I have been asking myself this question in the last days, and I honestly don’t know the answer. Being a relativist, I generally find good arguments on both sides of any question. On this one, I do too. It is a mean to connect with people and incorporate new feelings and sensations into your life. But it is an end, as it is one of the most intense things you can live down here. It’s a quest for pleasure, and pleasure is in itself a good thing if done in a good way (unless you are a Buddhist, as far as I know). These answers both make sense. You know, as a PIED rebooter and ‘’proud member of YBR’’, I have been asking myself often, what if sex was not really what you thought it is? If you were stuck with ED forever, would it be the end of the world? Could you live a fulfilled life without sex? Of course, I have no inclination towards this option, but it might not be unreasonable to ask this question. On the other hand, libido being a natural component of humans, you can ask yourself if you somehow threw yourself out of the mammals reign with porn addiction an ED. This is an argument solid enough to want to heal from porn addiction: getting back in the reign of mammals. Creatures like cats, dogs, all kinds of animals who are much less complex than us can still function normally when it’s time to grab a female and ultimately give birth to another being. With the hope of not sounding too theoretical (because after all, rebooting is a pretty concrete process), I’d say that in the first months of rebooting, you have to understand that sex isn’t everything in your life. There are other things. If you go hard mode or no arousal, you just don’t think about sex anymore, you basically get rid of sex obsession (we, on this forum, are all obsessed by sex). But then, as you move on, you just want to feel ‘’normal again’’, just like any rat, monkey, pig or mouse that can have sex with a female of his species when the time comes.

    Like I said, I don’t know what to think. I guess the first step is to heal from porn addiction, and then to find what to do with this natural function we all have that is called libido.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020 at 9:39 AM
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  20. DoneAtLast

    DoneAtLast Well-Known Member

    I think you raise a good point. People get scared to death of the idea of going "monk mode" or trying to live without sex during reboot. Let's say a person had to go without any sexual stimulation of any kind for an entire year in order to reboot. What harm has been done? Probably not much for most guys, if they're in relationships then those relationships could suffer, but if a guy is single anyway, I don't see much damage. A year is a long time, but a year can also disappear before your very eyes so quickly. What is the reward? He gets his sexuality back in a better, more refined way than he could have ever imagined before. But they have to get past that first hurdle of denying themselves. If a person is addicted to sugar and is obese, then trying to go on a short fast is going to feel like they are starving themselves, and they'll get stressed and anxious, but we know objectively that it is exactly what they need to do. Moreover, we also know that their relationship with food will be so much better after all of it if they can stick with it. We have a hard time convincing ourselves of this when it comes to sexual stimulation because it gets into these moral/philosophical areas and people are scared they'll turn into monks, or rapists or that weird creepy neighbor, or whatever. Modern culture spends way too much energy trying to scare people about what will happen if we aren't constantly trying to feed instant desires.

    Yeah, I think we're all obsessed with sex! For me, it is like that food comparison again. The people who are most enthusiastic about healthy eating are usually the ones who ate junk food for years and after finally going clean, losing weight, and feeling better, they can be that guy who never shuts up about nutrition. You could say that he was obsessed with food before and is obsessed with food now, but that really doesn't capture the whole picture. I guess that is me when I post threads like this.

    That might be my whole point in a couple sentences. For a porn addict, "libido" means having to wank at least once a day to the finest and best online material you can possibly find. Having just passed my three year mark, it feels very different. I feel incredibly little need to orgasm, but a very, very high need for real human connection. I had surgery a while ago, and when the nurse, a petite woman with a very gentle touch, was trying to find a vein for the IV I realized how long it had been before I'd even experienced just a gentle touch from outside my personal bubble. Was she attractive? Yes. Was I aroused? No, not really. That is a weird place for the human psyche. Historically we've been much closer to each other. It all gets mucked up into this broad category of desire, and a porn/sex addict tends to think it is just about ejaculation. If it was, hugging our children or our grandma would be deeply perverse.
     
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