When quitting porn asks you to re-evaluate "sex positivity"

I am a bit nervous starting this thread because sometimes when I voice my own opinions on this the conversation devolves in that very special way that only internet discussions can devolve where everyone becomes an extreme caricature of themselves. Nevertheless, I strongly feel that regardless of theistic positioning, philosophy of humanity, or personal exacting definitions of sexual practice, that quitting porn necessitates at least some personal reflection on this topic. Why? Because porn lies, and we've hammered lots of those lies into our heads by watching porn for years. Maybe we think women are supposed to love pain and screaming is normal. Maybe we think we're gay when we aren't. Maybe we think the strange fetish we're slowly feeding and growing like a strange mold is the entirety of our identities, and if we ignore it, we ignore out own personal growth.

The myth of "sex positivity" and porn are not the same thing, but they are symbiotic. Sex positivity tells us that porn is good, and porn's consumption demands of us a constant stretching and reshaping of definitions, and the only way to achieve this without total cognitive dissonance is to accept "sex positivity". If you say no to one, the other one suffers and needs to either be reevaluated, or the one you said no to needs to be revived. Question sex positivity, and you will either find yourself realizing how bizarre and strange a persistent porn habit is, or you will need to re-evangelize yourself to sex positivity to justify your porn habit. Quit porn, and as you desensitize you will either be taking the red pill and see the silliness of it all, or you'll double down on sex positivity and porn will seem like the only sensible option to the raging urges and triggers that inevitably bubble up.

This isn't my moralism making this assertion. It is from my own experience of quitting porn, and it is from my time on these boards hearing about people quitting porn. It is an all too clear pattern that people who seem heavily invested in the idea of "sex positivity" and are internally rooting for porn on matters of principle have a very, very hard time going longer than a week or two quitting porn.

For the sake of clarity, I should say that when I say "sex positivity", I am not saying "any view of sex more lax than what you read in high school in The Scarlett Letter". I am not sure there is any one definition of sex positivity (if anyone has ideas, please share), but it strikes me that it is less a philosophy than it is a lack of a philosophy. Any time someone tries creating some world view, value system or even set of impressions of sexuality they are deemed to be against sex positivity, no matter how open or wild that system might be. That makes it hard to define and hard to argue against because all you can ever do is provide a defense and never an offense, because there is nothing to argue against. In an effort to avoid sexual moralism, the absence of said moralism in the form of sex positivity becomes the new moralism. The new moralism seeks to shut down all opposition by pure shaming and labeling of being repressed, puritanical or sex negative.

I am also not saying that there is any one value system of sex that is necessary to quit porn. I'm just saying that everyone quitting porn needs to figure this out at some point for themselves.

For anyone who disagrees that porn is anti-sex, I put to you the phenomenon of PIED. Porn Induced Erectile Dysfunction. The near ubiquitous result of high speed internet porn use makes natural physical sex near impossible or outright impossible. There is no philosophy there, just hard data (or soft data, you choose).

Part of the inspiration of this thread is, of course, an interaction with a troll poster about a week ago, but also a video popping up on my YouTube feed. I'll post it here without much comment, except that it isn't necessarily the main thrust of what I'm saying to fellow porn-addicts, but rather just an example of a very well articulated view that doesn't involve moralism in any way.

 

Yeah I would agree that casual sex probably isn't the best. The amount of diseases that can be caught and spread around now is nothing short of alarming and even wearing a condom doesn't guarantee people will be safe from catching STD's but unfortunately casual sex is here to stay. A lot of men I know don't trust in marriages anymore and believe me I have seen some good men get fucked over by the ex lover and divorce courts.

Casual sex is safe is usually safe when it comes to legal formalities so that's why a lot of men choose to partake in that instead of marriages. Of course that's only my opinion maybe I am wrong but from personal experience I can see why men are becoming more hesitant when it comes to tying the knot.

 

Hi Doneatlast, an interesting post, thank you. I haven't watched the video- anything to do with sex and a computer is a triggering combination for me that I do best to avoid when I can. Plus, I find the thumbnail a bit triggering. Reading your post by itself, I feel as though I can't comment on this in any real detail until it is stated what is meant by sex positivity. For example, is it simply removing shame and fear from sex or does it describe a lifestyle where sexual indulgence is encouraged? I can relate to the dilemma that you present because after about three years from quitting porn I had to figure out how to peacefully coexist with my sexuality without antagonising my addiction.

My thoughts from a non religious background are that I think porn fuels obsession with sex. The appetite for sex like food can increasingly grow to destructive proportions if it is not controlled. This is why porn is one of the most addictive drugs out there in my opinion. I think a mistake that a lot of recovering porn addicts make is that they think their compulsive porn use is the only problem. When they are able to have successful sex, they overdo it and become sex addicts. The inner illness remains because they haven't changed spiritually or grasped really what healthy sexuality is. Now what precisely constitutes healthy sexuality varies according to the value system of the individual, but the key point is that mindless escape through sex only perpetuates the addiction. Sex positivity can easily be a licence to engage in addictive behaviours, like when I experimented with masturbation again after a few years hard mode only to find that it allowed the addiction to creep back in. For me, healthy sexuality is sex expressed through love in a committed relationship. What does this mean to my recovery? While I am single, I don't masturbate and I don't look at any porn. My brain is incapable of understanding loving sexuality without a partner. I have to learn a new language, a foreign one and it is so much more than the simple chase of pleasure involving myself.

This brings me back to my first point, that society places too much emphasis on sex. Companies use it to manipulate others to purchase their products, and porn is becoming increasingly mainstream. Sex occupies too big a place in our consciousness, and is not that important in the grand scheme of things. This is all the more so for us as addicts and we have to learn to keep it in check. I think the fill your boots of sex lifestyle is one that is closed off for many of us because we can't practice it healthily. Healthy sexuality to me is one free from fear and shame but also is aware of my limitations as an addict and my inclination to escape through sex.

The porn industry certainly does have morally questionable activities, but I have found it easier to leave the moral argument out when quitting porn. Its too abstract. A more powerful motivation is considering the personal benefits to myself of quitting, and in particular, in relation to the specific values that I have. For example. quitting porn means that I have more of a desire to socialise with other people and develop my social skills. It also means that I am more likely to meet a partner. Another one of my values is exercise, and I know that I both have more energy for exercise and an organic desire to engage with it plus the willpower to push myself out of my comfort zone. The moral argument needn't come into it at all. All I know is that porn is bad for me and when I watch it, my life is far less enjoyable and fulfilling than when I am sober.

 

Agreed and agreed.

I was born into an agnostic family and I tend to consider myself atheist (ironically I believe the utility and value of faith is likely immeasurable), anyway that's a different conversation.

I think 'sex positivity' is a net negative and though I wouldn't have said this in the past, I would ban porn in an instant if I could. I believe it's very important to not deny that we're biological creatures with biological, sexual desires. But as you state without some form of morality around sex, it is quickly pedastalized and turned pathological.

This topic kind-of dovetails with a post I just made in this thread: https://yourbrainrebalanced.com/for...successful-and-unsuccessful-rebooters.118051/

In summary. I said I believe one of the biggest barriers for quitting P (for others and myself) has been the constant pedastalization I perform of sex, arousal and Women. When envisaging myself healed and recovered my default thought is about being a player. The problem is, 'being a player' is an appeal to the limbic brain and the limbic brain already thinks it is a player thanks to porn. So recovery is instantly made redundant.

It's beyond wild to me just how much sex 'positivity' is intentionally pushed everywhere. At my University there is a magazine which comes out every 2 weeks and it's FULL of debauchery, endless glorification of hook-up culture. It's pushed in all sorts of music videos. I remember being horrified at a friend of a friends house and seeing one of their younger sisters (7?) walking out of her room to a beyonce song performing a very sexual dance while the early-twenty whatever girls were laughing and amused. And don't bloody get me started on drag-queen story time, that is beyond enraging.

 

Great initial post and inspired response. As a recovering alcoholic, I have no wish to ban alcohol. I have no problem with others drinking. My wife likes a glass of wine. I just have the no admission sign up in my brain when it comes to alcohol. I, in the words of Denis Leary, did my share, and your share and yours. I was hospitalised, pumped out, analysed; and pretty much took myself to the point of death. I went to AA as an agnostic and remain one. I wouldn't say I have a higher power, unless you count AA as my HP. I just had enough of booze. It nearly killed me, and I didn't want to die. So I have no problem with people getting drunk who can then leave it alone for a month and not think of it again. I did my moralizing and my philosophising over the ills of alcohol. But my final analysis was - it's not for me. I'm an addict. I drank too much, I took too many drugs and I spent a fortune on prostitution. I'm an addict. I still like to go horse racing, but I know that's a coastal shelf. So when it came to sex, my ego told me I have to be having sex. I'm a good looking and fit man. By that definition I should be having sex with beautiful women. But, my life didnt work out that way because of shyness. So I turned to the pecuniary solution to make up for my inability to pick up girls. How many of those women liked having sex with me? Few, I imagine. Then the dawn of the internet brought instant gratification. Straight porn. Lesbian porn, femdom, superheroes. Soon everything was sexualised. The train journey in the morning to work became porn.
To finish. I was watching a great Tedtalk earlier on brain plasticity and I had to stop watching because the lady giving the lecture was wearing an item of clothing that triggers me. Boots.

How did we make life and a biological act so complicated. Mary Shelly would be proud of her foresight.

Darren

 

That might be a perfect simplification of what I'm trying to say. If we've let porn be at the front of the room speaking to us and telling us all about sex for years and then we find out that porn lies compulsively and harms us, we can't leave the room believing everything we wanted to believe. And, if porn wasn't true... then what is true? Do we need a new philosophy at that point, or can we just go through life with a philosophical vacuum when it comes to sex? I don't know about you guys, but I think about sex stuff way too much to let it be disorganized and not unified by some sort of philosophy.

 

I hope this is slightly coherent.
I think you have to separate casual sex and porn use. It's utter nonsense that there aren't people that enjoy sleeping around and at the same time have it together, genuinely enjoy life and are positive influences to those around them. The thing is that most people that might consider themselves "sex positive", whatever that means, actually aren't. Just like some people can drink their couple drinks at dinner, there are skid row drunks. How one views the drug, or act, differs substantially. A wise man once said: "Don't try to recover from porn using what porn has told you as a ground work". Well, if a guy were going out on the town thinking thoughts like "I can't wait to find some dirty whore skank to bust nuts in, and make cry", or some weird shit like that, well, yeah that is SEX NEGATIVE.....I imagine that if a genie gave a 4-hour a night porn addict, mentally sick neckbeard his wish to be the most attractive man in the world for a night, that's what would be running through his head. Guys that I know that have it together and that can run through (<---) as many women as they want don't think that way. Maybe because they always had success, and had it early, and aren't porn-warped. But one thing they have in common, IS THAT THEY LOVE WOMEN. Not in a sick, "I wanna bust nuts on their forehead because I THINK it's degrading" kind of way. I mean they LOVE THEM in the most respectful way possible, and the women pick up on that. And they don't seem to be picky either, even if they can be. This idea that there isn't a way to have casual sex respectfully, IMO, is porn and....other..... induced.
Thinking that this isn't possible is just evidence the person, at some level, believes the act is dirty, or degrading to one or both parties. Look at porn thumbnail descriptors, "2 filthy whores get their -------- annihilated"......that's not positivity, that's negativity, and the people that I think get off most on that are the people who have it nailed into their heads that sex is dirty......
I have never liked that, that turns me off. I do like watching what would be considered, the more extreme genres, but if the girls don't look like their into it, I'm out. I actually try to filter out the ones that are "acting" like they're down. I try to find the ones that really are. Degradation is the last thing I'm looking for, because if all parties are down, who cares, it's all in good fun. I don't believe in everlasting fiery torment for a young lady that likes dicks outside of wedlock.

At the same time, I don't think most people are actually sex positive. This extreme sex advertising does not preach positivity, it is just another wing of the "sex is dirty" campaign. That's where the money is. Look at America. Killing, everlasting war, extreme military expenditures and whatever else is patriotic, but a nipple slips at a halftime show and it's fuckin pandemonium. A prudish, sex negative nation......You are confusing advertising for sex positivity. An example is ex-porn stars, who have one hell of a time getting regular employment. Why?.....because they are 3rd class outcasts. Dirty, skanky whores......In a true sex positive society, that would absolutely not be the case......Now of course, the sex positive weasel boss or coworker will jerk off their little wieners watching this person doing their on-screen work, but have them in my office? not on your life, sir. Is that sex positive?.....
Maybe that's what I'll do if I start a business, I'll hire all ex-porn stars and hopefully be able to write it off as some charitable donations.

It's all just business. This gives mainstream directors, writer's, bloggers, editors, advertiser's.....millions of occupations an easy way to make money. Can't think of a way to advertise something, fill an article, or make a movie interesting? Attach sex to it.....it's just laziness really. Don't worry, most of these people are sex negative and the ball is still firmly in that, and the god people's, court.

BTW, you should have put a spoiler on that Scarlett Letter remark, I looked it up, read it and then sex positivitied all over myself.....Thanks a lot Doneatlast....Day one.

 

It was more than slightly coherent, it was brilliant.

It is part of why I wanted to start this thread. Seeing that porn gives us bad ideas doesn't make you a prude. You may be many things Doper, but you ain't a prude.

 

Thank you.

I had a strange, vivid dream last night. I looked up at the sky, the clouds parted, and down from the heavens dropped a stack of papers and a thumb drive. I looked it over. It was a well-crafted document and a sweet PowerPoint presentation on a business idea, incorporating the jobless ex-pornstars. The document stated the most lucrative way forward is to start a pedicure spa, where the ex-pornstars are the pedicurists.
It even gave a name for this new chain of facilities, it said to call them:

Pharisee's Foot Washes and Wine Bar

Oh yeah, it's also a wine bar. And why name it that?.....I have no freakin idea; a bit of a strange name I'd say, but it was in the powerpoint.
I'm just not sure how many people would visit this type of place, I know one guy that would, but he doesn't have much money.

Weird dream, eh?

 

I was going to ask you about the name, then I kept reading and realized you had no idea either. Mentioning Pharisees is interesting, but I had no idea where you were going with that. Maybe an allusion to Jesus "dining with prostitutes and tax collectors" while the Pharisees scoffed...? Maybe you were saying that modern day Pharisees watch porn and hate porn stars? I'm likely over thinking it. Maybe you were confusing Pharisees with Herod, who was much more of a glutton and slob. He was in an open relationship with his sister in law and got a lap dance from his niece.

I do love the idea of talking about ex-porn stars. You're absolutely right. Tossing them out with the old coffee grounds and banana peels is perfect evidence that our "sex positivity" is nothing of the sort, otherwise these people would be given retirement plans or job programs. Maybe it is because recognizing the need underscores that going into porn might not be the equivalent of an Ivy League scholarship. Have you seen Hot Girls Wanted? I remember one of the guys saying "a lot of these girls think they have a long term job, but the shelf life on any of them is usually about 9-10 months."

 

You know the one where the Pharisee has a big party and sends an invite to the Jesus, and Jesus is sitting there sipping his wine and the prostitute rolls in and starts washing his feet with her hair and tears. And the proud Pharisee is like, "why is the Jesus letting that scag touch him, he must not really be all that"....I'm paraphrasing of course.

Yeah I was kind of going for the pharisee being the proud porn watchers, proud religious people, and the general sex negative public in general, who wouldn't get a foot washing from, or work with or hire, or give the time of day to, some dirtbag porn-hoor. But Jesus would. And as I understand, Jesus doesn't really like pride. It's pretty hypocritical for anyone to get off on watching people putting themselves in rather vulnerable situations, but at the same looking down on those people for doing so. Literally getting off on degrading people. Really gross and toxic for society. This is alien to me, I'm just a pervert, but seemingly a lot of people are actually sick, and like degradation. But at the same time are proud of themselves. I guess when you think about it, wanting to degrade others does naturally comes with a sense of pride, or at least, wanting to feel better about yourself at the cost of others.

As I'm not religious, you have to excuse my thinking religious people are automatically going to know exactly what I'm talking about when I make faint allusions to one of the few bible stories I've remembered. Since the one about the whale and the frog monsoon probably won't apply in the future, I'm fresh out, and you won't have to deal with that again.

 

Seems like a truck load of overthinking in this thread. Sex good porn bad.

 

Lol. You are right, this thread is pretty philosophical. Guys who have just started to reboot don’t really need to dive into those subjects. But the one who started the thread has been away from porn for years, and he seems very interested in philosophy (or whatever you want to call the search for a meaning in your life). It’s nice that there are threads like this that allow us to reflect on porn in a deeper manner than just thinking about staying away from it.

 

Nah, you're doing just fine! I love everything you're saying. I originally typed a whole bunch about it but won't post it because it is so far off topic. The interactions with the Pharisees are a particular passion of mine, partly because of what happens within Christian communities. Social media makes everyone act like distempered children, but the effect is, to my eyes, most stunning among the religious and we get a new generation of Pharisees where they had virtually died out before internet 2.0 hit. For anyone curious, the part he's talking about is Luke 7:36-50.

I'll put a couple ideas out there. Yes, sex is good and porn is bad. But, what is sex? And, can we know what sex is if we've been letting our brains marinate in porn for years, in some cases before we ever have sexual encounters or even hit puberty? Or, when everyone we might interact with might also be getting ideas about sex from porn? It is like if all we ever ate was Chinese takeout and we assumed that we knew exactly what they were eating in Shanghai or off in the rural villages. I've never eaten food in China, but I know better than to think they're just eating egg rolls, chicken fingers and fortune cookies. Maybe some people went to China and ate at the airport, and they got the American version of Chinese food, because that's what the demand is among tourists. It still doesn't make it authentic.

The other thing I'll say is regarding "overthinking". Yeah, we think about sex constantly. But, do we really think about sex or do we just get sexual ideas and sit on them for a while? To keep the food analogy going, we're constantly thinking about how hungry we are and what we want to eat, but we never think about nutrition. We can talk about micro- and macro-nutrients, the merits of paleo vs. veganism, fasting, whether dietary cholesterol affects our blood levels and so much more, or we can just think forever about how we'll stuff our pie holes. If all you think about is how to quiet a roaring stomach, you'll end up obese, sweaty, out of shape, possibly diabetic and a heart attack waiting to happen. My own opinion is that porn has made us all the sexual equivalent. Quitting porn is a major step towards a healthier diet, but it still leaves loose ends. That is what this thread is about.

 

That’s pretty interesting. I guess the simple answer - and the reason for which I started rebooting - is just that I want to be ‘’functional’’ in the bedroom. This is a very basic view on sex and rebooting, but I think it’s reasonable and can serve as a basis for someone who is starting to reboot. But I have to admit that reading your posts on this thread has made me question my views on sex. It’s as if I was rebooting just to have more fun in life (in the bedroom, and with women in general), and to fix self-esteem issues. I realize as I am writing this that rebooting is also about discovering new ways to express yourself through sexuality. Intimacy is a dimension of life that can not be experimented very well when you are addicted to porn and have ED. So rebooting is not just about fixing ED: it’s also about personal growth, and learning to connect with other humans on different levels. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I will meditate on this.

 

I think I also fall in the sex positive camp in that I try to stop watching porn so that I find better ways to express my sexuality which I don't see as something "dangerous" (or worst "bad") per se. If I am honest, one of my main motivations to stop PMO is to have physical intimacy with a real girl. And if a magic genie would come tell me this will never happen I'm not sure I would still quit PMO (?) - at least not now in my 30s . Maybe this mindset is what makes me relapse more easily though. On the other hand - although I can see how sex can be an addiction and perhaps - the "puritanical perspective" has it right (sorry to use this term I don't mean it in a pejorative way) - I think one has to find this out for himself. I will not not have casual sex (for example) only because others tell me it's wrong. But it's good to be aware how sex itself can be a problem just like porn addiction. So it's very good that we share our perceptions on it with others but we should always strive to reach our own conclusions with such perceptions coming from someone else. In the end it's all about personal experimentation... We can take what another person who is wiser has to say on the topic (say a guy who has slept with so many women and tells us "don't go there") and kind of keep that in mind while we try to find our own way as well.

I think quitting porn will force anyone to re evaluate what sexuality is, sooner or later. It's a discussion one needs to have with himself at some point.

But I think it's possible to be "sex positive" while not endorsing PMO. While seeing PMO as a totally unhelpful way to use one's sexuality. It's similar to loving food and considering eating is an important pelasure of life while saying that Mcd's is not the best place to go satisfy that need.

I would also put my money on the statement that he who (truly) finds a healthy outlet for his sexuality will not feel the need for PMO.

 

Exactly, unless you were never very addicted in the first place, you have to, over time, gain a very good understanding of the subject. This gives you mental tools against relapse. If you only go as far as "sex good, porn bad", and don't have new epiphanies when you relapse, you are never going to learn for example, what your triggers are, new ways to avoid them, and counterarguments to the lies your addicted brain tells you when it is trying to get you to relapse. A quick, easy example of this would be a person (...me) that habitually tells themselves that they are only going to drink 2-3 drinks, and then ends up drinking 3-4 times that much about 3/4 of the time. A pretty common problem I hear. At some point, you have to come up with reasons and arguments against drinking any alcohol, and reasons even those 2 drinks are detrimental to you, or that it's easier and more enjoyable to just abstain, so you don't get tricked again by the lie of "just a couple". And this can't just be one reason, you have to build a large mental library of logic to blast at that devious prick in your noggin'....I can't say it always works of course, but if the only weapon I had against binge drinking was "2-3 good, 7 or more bad", well, I'd keep getting tripped up every day for the rest of my life because I would try to drink 2 and it mostly doesn't work. I would fail at every possible juncture.

 

I totally agree. And on top of this fact there are many other societal problems that make it that people are less and less able to really connect with each other (probably also some unhealthy forms of media has a role here). And probably the fact that society is becoming more complex and demanding - all of these elements together make people more neurotic and have harder times just connecting for real. It's like many people have social anxiety now. So this climate makes it much harder to actually connect and interact (which includes romantic interaction) AND you come mix this whole bag of problem with oversexualization through media and ads and how people dress and porn and all that stuff. So society is becoming more "sexual" but in a really unhealthy way. It's like it's all about teasing now and less about giving or being generous. We just want to steal a bit of narcissitic supply from our fellow humans. Hopefully humanity will find some ways to fix this stuff. Maybe if more people wake up to these issues things can slowly change. Maybe that change is already happening. I'm sure not everyone is like this and some people truly connect. It's just that the social climate encourages this for many unfortunately.

 

Interesting that you hadn't heard it before. Yeah, without the baggage of how the term gets abused, I'd say I'm 100% sex positive. The issue is that it becomes this wild card that is pulled out against any argument that tries to have a nuanced discussion about sexuality and to justify pretty much anything. It raises a good point. Maybe we just need to reclaim the term instead of disparaging it.

I probably fall between you two. Part of why I write this is because I noticed from pretty much the first time I ever came to these boards that lots of guys wanted to quit porn in order for their lives to better resemble porn. They wanted to stop watching the videos of 3-somes with whips and masks so they could themselves have a 3-some with whips and masks, without stopping to think whether their desires were informed by years of porn use or not. Obviously it is very important for a beginner to consider. That said, I see where Bilbo is coming from. You can't throw all of this at someone who has just barely figured out that porn is not the best thing in the world for them. That is just way too much for someone to take in. Usually if someone posts asking my advice, I just tell them to keep an open mind about what sexuality might look like post-porn. After all, it isn't for me to tell them what it is supposed to be, but I have no problem telling anyone that it sure as heck ain't what is in porn.

Agreed! I do think there is a slippery slope regarding how we perceive others and how they dress; ultimately I am the owner of my own eyes. I've had enough platonic friendships with women to know that it can be very hard for them. If they have a couple God given curves to them and people stare, they can suddenly feel like it is their duty to hide it and figuring out how to dress themselves day-in/day-out becomes a nightmare. One woman I knew who was a tad on the busty side used to complain that she loved sun dresses but could never wear them with the sort of bra that she needed. Young women sometimes end up with back problems because they habitually slouch to hide their boobs. Of course, I know your posts well enough to know that this isn't how you're thinking, but it is worth mentioning. I run in to extreme examples of this in religious circles and it kinda drives me nuts. It is like they think that every woman is actively trying to seduce them. To your larger point I agree - cheap sexual stimulation sells. We've known that for decades. What is really weird is how elusive real sexuality truly is. When was the last time you saw a sex scene in a movie that was as clumsy, sloppy and kinda funny as it is in reality? Maybe in some comedies, but not often.

People say smart things on the subject frequently, but it never cuts through all the noise. Maybe giving entire generations of young men limp willies is the only thing that will get through. If I had my way, I'd like to see masculinity reinvented. I'd like to see a return of the "gentleman" and the elimination of the "bro". More Jimmy Stewart and Cary Grant and less Logan Paul. Good men don't repress their sexuality, they simply take custody of it. If that happens, then the media and everything else will follow, but if we try changing the media without changing dudes, I'm not sure we'll get anywhere.

Nailing it as always.