Truth About Flatline (I hope Gary agrees)

Discussion in 'Pornography Addiction' started by Alpha_Dog, Apr 8, 2016.

  1. Alpha_Dog

    Alpha_Dog New Member

    Hi, guys! I hope you all are doing well! today I want to speak about flatline! since the beginning of my reboot, I've come across a number of wrong misconceptions about flatline, specifically more about its cause rather than flatline itself! many rebooters blame nofap and they think abstinence is the sole reason for their absent libido but I think it's totally wrong and I'll tell you why! we all know about monks and their celibate lives! we all know they don't masturbate because of their career choice but they don't experience flatline! if they experienced flatline, then they wouldn't meditate and do some other shit to switch their focus on something else rather than sex! I personally know some of them and all of them told me that after a month or so since their last sexual experience (either through sex or through masturbation) they were so horny that they at some point thought it was impossible to go cold turkey but eventually they learned to control their urges but still they all have decent sex drives!!! Why? because they have no porn history and they have natural sex pathways and hence real libido! I can recall one more occasion when I was in the army (for a month) 10 years ago and I couldn't masturbate there because the thought of masturbating in a public toilet was unattractive to me! so I became extremely horny and all I thought about was sex and everything associated with it! why? because I hadn't been masturbating to porn before that and I had healthy sex pathways! since I started my reboot I've had numerous flatlines but eventually I managed to come out of it through lots of sex (with real girls, not prostitutes! prostitutes in my case worsened my flatline)!!! so flatline has nothing to do with abstinence! abstinence might lower your sex drive but not to the extent that you feel castrated! flatline = the result of long-term porn abuse which can only be eliminated by restoring your natural sex pathways through rewiring with real girls!!!

    Good luck, guys! Hope this helps!

    Much love
  2. Interesting to hear about the experiences of monks you know personally.
    Thanks for sharing.
  3. Wabi-sabi

    Wabi-sabi Imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete

    Flatline is when your brain must learn to exist without the bath of feel-good chemicals that are released by a porn session.

    I'd compare it to what happens when you quit cigarettes, or coffee - or, to be honest, any other addictive substance or behavoir.

    I've seen guys start here obsessed with masturbation - angry when I suggest they shouldn't even want to do it after rebooting and rewiring.
  4. Gary Wilson

    Gary Wilson Active Member

    Exactly. Severe Flat-lines are not a normal response to temporarily abstaining from ejaculation.

    I know a lot of older guys who abstained from orgasm, and none have experienced a flatline. I have gone long stretches without ejaculation and have never experienced any changes in my libido or testosterone. That said, YBOP does not support abstinence as a lifestyle, and states in the "start here articles" that longer may no be better. In addition, the "start here articles" link to several threads arguing that rebooting should include masturbation.

    I posted the following a few weeks ago in response to the claim that severe flatlines are a normal male response to abstaining from ejaculation -


    You are not addressing my comments. Your thesis seems to be: the normal male response to abstaining from masturbation for a month or two is a severe flatline, which involves the loss of libido and the inability to acheive an erection. You also suggested in your earlier thread that abstinence leads to all sorts of hormonal changes.

    If your thesis were true, all the following would need to be false.

    1) There is no history of severe flatllines in men who eliminate masturbation. It's not normal. Saying it's normal because it is occurring in young porn users is like saying ED in young men is normal because it's now happening in young porn users. Before 2000 ED rates for men under 40 were 2-3%. Now some studies have it at 30% (for sexually active men), with low libido at 37% (in sexually active men). Is 2% normal or is 33% "normal"?

    2) Flat-lines are not normal. Too many cultures, religions, and situations (boot camp, camping trips, travel, climbing a mountain, etc.) have resulted in millions and millions of men not masturbating for at least a month or two. Yet we have never heard of a severe flatline occurring in these men. This alone refutes the claims that flatlines are the normal response to abstinence.

    3) Countless young men enter puberty and never masturbate. Countless more do not masturbate until they are 16 or 17 or later. Why don't all these adolescents experience a flatline and inability to acheive an erection? If a flatline is caused by not masturbating, then all adolescent males would be in a severe flatline until they regularly masturbated. This alone refutes the claim that abstinence leads to a flatline.

    4) You have suggested that the flaline is caused by alterations in the HPA axis or HPG axis. Yet animal and human research finds that abstinence leads to no discernible alterations in circulating hormones, including testosterone. Since rebooters often experience the flatline within the first week or two (as the guy did the link you gave), we would expect an alteration in circulating hormones occurring a week or two into abstinence. But no studies report this. Interestingly, some studies find no difference in tetsoterone level between normal sexually active men and men with chronic ED:

    Study 1 -
    Circulating levels of testosterone in men with normal sexual function (mean 635 ng/dl) were not significantly different from testosterone values in sexually dysfunctional men

    Study 2 -
    In this large population based cohort of older men we found no association among total testosterone, bioavailable testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin and erectile dysfunction.

    Study 3 -
    The pituitary testicular system was studied in men with psychogenic impotence. Eight patients with primary erectile impotence age 22--36 years, eight men with secondary erectile impotence age 29--55 years, and 16 men with premature ejaculation age 23--43 years were studied. Statistical analysis revealed no significant differences between patients and normal controls.

    5) I've only seen flat-lines occur in porn users. And long PIED recoveries occur almost exclusively young porn users.

    6) Thousands of young porn users have eliminated porn use, entered a flatline and recovered. If your thesis were true no one would have recovered and every man who attempted a reboot would still be in flatline.

    7) Only an infinitesimally small percentage of men who reboot continue to experience a long, uninterrupted flatline. The percentage of those men who attempt a reboot and who never recover from a flatline appears to be very very small.

    The math: the major forums (YBR, RBN,, r/noffpa, r/porn free, YBOP) together have at least 100,000 visitors a day. Many millions per year. Out of these millions of men only a handful post to say that they have entered a very long flatline and feel unable to recover their from porn-induced sexual problem. These men were chronic porn users, and most are young men who used porn during adolescence.

    You are basing your entire thesis on the far far end of the bell curve: Those few young men, with PIED, who enter a long flatline, and take a very long time to recover from PIED. For your thesis to be true all men who abstain should experience a never ending flatline. Yet, hardly any do. What do those who are taking a very long time to recover have in common? Using internet porn during adolescence.

    8 - History lesson. Men were rebooting in 2006 on my wife's forum. YBOP came online in 2011, as did r/nofap. YBR in 2012. For many years only "older men" rebooted. Almost all did so for sexual problems. They did not experience long flatlines, and it only took 6-8 weeks to regain normal sexual functioning. Things started to change in 2012 when young men, who grew up on internet porn, started to reboot. Only then did we start to see extended recovery periods. Which leads to - Why do long PIED recoveries, with long flatlines, occur almost exclusively in young men who used internet porn during adolescence? If your thesis were correct, older men should take much longer to recover, and should enter longer flatlines. They don't.

    9) Many, if not most of r/nofap members, do not complain about a flatline. Many complain about being too horny. If the flatline were a universal response to abstaining from masturbating all nofappers would be complaining about it.

    10) Masturbation sends some young men (rarely for older men) back into a severe flatline. These same young men wait a few more months, and are then able to masturbate without experiencing a flatline. We would expect the opposite result if your thesis were universally true.

    11) There are guys who did not recover from PIED while still regularly masturbating. When these men switched to no orgasm for a while, they recovered.

    12) Since the 1980's, therapists and sex addiction groups (SA, SLA, etc.) have male "sex addicts" abstain from all sex and masturbation for at least 90 days. Where's all the anecdotes of those men being unable to acheive or becomes sexually excited? I have attended the major conferences (ITAP, SASH) for sex addiction therapists. I have talked to the therapists. There's no indication that "sex addicts" (those men who act out sexually with real people) experience a flatline when they become "sober". It's not part of the yore. Shouldn't all the sex addicts experience a flatline? Yet they don't. Heck here';s Terry Crews talking about his two 90-day no ejaculation periods. In his first attempt he made it only 75 days because he was so horny -

    PS - You continue to ignore the fact that you had a long abstinence from porn and now seem better. Yes, you needed to masturbate, yet that is exactly what has been suggested by YBOP for years in the start here articles, and in faqs. It's even in my PIED video which I did 2 years ago. Attempting masturbation after a period of abstinence is not a hidden secret.

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