Too Late to the Party?

Discussion in 'Ages 40+' started by Saville, May 15, 2016.

  1. Mad Dog

    Mad Dog Well-Known Member

    What's the name of that book ? There is very little research done by the AMA into strokes. Why ? Because they know they were wrong about the brain ! Bastards ! There is however much research by independent labs that have stated and proved that the brain can adapt and WILL! But you must show it that what you want again and again. I look foward to hearing what the book has to say Saville!
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
  2. MissingSelfCompassion

    MissingSelfCompassion Active Member

    I'm halfway through "The Brain That Changes Itself" by Doidge. It's really interesting and gives me hope. At the same time, Its plasticity can be problematic. Doidge calls it the plasticity paradox. This fits our PMO issues. Say your on top of a snow covered hill with a sled. You can go down anywhere you like. The next trip, you can still choose different directions, but if you choose the same path more than once a track forms in the snow and it can be near impossible to deviate.

    @Saville I loved what you wrote about your 6 rules. Damn, that's amazing that you worked that out for yourself. I also have mommy issues that I have projected onto my spouse. I'm trying to learn to ask to be loved by my spouse. There was a fear that it reinforces my desire for outside validation insrins of getting it internally, but I need both.
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  3. Mad Dog

    Mad Dog Well-Known Member

    That is one way of looking at it. If you have sex without pmo you deepen that track as is stated. One of the problems of all pmo addicts is we tend to look at everything with a negative lens. Neuroplasticity is a wonder of nature a Godsent if you will.
  4. Saville

    Saville Well-Known Member

    I'm really enjoying the discussion and all the input! :)

    Yes, we still have to be relentless in our pursuit to get better. Neuroplasticity offers us a veritable banquet of delights, but as we all know there's no free lunch.

    We do need both, I think. Or, it's wonderful to be validated from time to time. The key is, I think, not to look for it in order for our day to have value. I'm not sure about asking my spouse to love me, or to show love. I tried that approach before I embarked on my No-PMO journey. If I ask somebody to give something that should be freely given then how useful is that? My wife and I had long discussions about how "I" felt diminished and how "I" needed to be talked to in a more loving way. What she heard was that I was putting her down, calling her an unloving biotch...which I actually was. heh heh. At the time I thought I was just standing up for myself, trying to make the marriage better, but underlying all my reasonableness was a hidden agenda. Namely: I'm the good guy, you're the person who has ruined everything. Of course, because I felt like a failure in life it was easy to look for places to put the blame; anywhere other than myself!

    What I've found borne out since giving up PMO and being a "nice guy" is that my behavior changes my wife's behavior. If she sees me plugged into my own life then she wants to be a part of that. Built into a woman's DNA is the desire to respond to a man who takes care of business. And, by business I mean as stated above: taking care of the stuff that is front of us. I was chronically late getting taxes done, often didn't complete renovations that I had started, and never tried to make any more money than I was making. I talked a good game, but didn't walk one. I always had an excuse. I'm tired, I'm sick, I'm down, I have to help the kids, and blah blah blah. No wonder I was tired. lol It is fucking tiring always hiding under a woman's skirts, especially when you're fat. :D

    So, the change in my behavior made my wife automatically show me more love, as she had no other choice but to do so. Then, when I began insisting that we have sex once a week that furthered her interest in me. She bitched, moaned, and whined about me being a horn dog, but because she is a human who is biologically wired to crave human touch, on a deep level she was responding in a positive way.

    I have a fir tree in my back yard that used to be surrounded by many others. I had those all chopped down and now the one fir that's left has grown its branches way beyond where it could have when impeded by the other trees. When we clear the shit away from ourselves we leave lots of space for both people to grow.

    Yep! Changing that lens is hard won, but man is it worth it. I know that I still have a long way to go, but I'm enjoying the journey more than ever. I wish I wasn't 60, but what'cha gunna do?
  5. Mad Dog

    Mad Dog Well-Known Member

    Yes I am enjoying it as well. I also feel I have a long way to go. To go ?---- where ? Personal learning is a road in this life with no end, it is one that only ends when one dies and moves into the next existence and then it starts again ! How wonderful!:p
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  6. Libertad

    Libertad Well-Known Member

    That is a Realisation, not sure how to react to it, with depression or joy, the best might be one of acceptance to the inevitable.
  7. Saville

    Saville Well-Known Member

    I hope I don't have to learn everything all over again. :p

    In "The Brain's Way of Healing" there is a pain specialist who uses the acronym MIRROR to remind patients how to organize their minds. It gives them something concrete to focus on when they start feeling the pain, wherever that might be in their bodies. The pain specialist, Moskowitz, sees people who have tried all the options without success. They've all been through physio, chiro, pain meds, sometimes surgery, and endless doctor visits. He gets patients to use visualization as a way of getting rid of their pain. I'll just give a brief idea of what each letter stands for. If you want more info you'll have to get the book.

    M - Motivation. Pain (Porn use) saps motivation and creates a passivity in the person. People in pain just rely on the specialists to help. People who use porn, and don't want to, are hoping for a magic bullet, too.

    I - Intention. He's says it's a subtle concept and after reading three times I agree. "The immediate intention is not to get rid of the pain - it is to focus the mind, in order to change the brain." He says that if we just focus on getting rid of the pain then success will be fleeting. Our intention is to create new path ways. When we feel the tug of P we must focus our minds and say "I'm going to create new pathways. I'm not getting sucked into the rut."

    R - Relentlessness. When you feel pain, push back. When you feel the urge, push back. He says it isn't enough to just tolerate the pain or distract oneself, that it might be easier to just pop a pill...have a wank. "it is not an intense enough focus to break the strangle hold of chronic pain" or PMO. "Relentless means: every time there is pain...push back, with full focus, and with the specific intention of exceptions. No negotiations with pain" or the addict!

    R - Reliability. the brain is not the enemy and we can "rely upon it to restore and maintain normal function if it has clear and unrelenting directions to do so." The brain isn't trying to punish you. The brain wants to be in a state of stability. It wants to have a factory restore. It's with us given a chance to do so.

    O - Opportunity. A chance to repair our system. When we are beset by pain/desire we use it as an opportunity to be constructive. When we feel intense pain it goes right to our amygdala, which causes flight/fight response. The "amygdala is not a place of moderation. It is a place of extreme emotion." If we use our desire to PMO as an opportunity to "gain control" then we are turning the desire back on itself. The brain recognizes it as a symptom, instead of a pathology.

    R - Restoration. "Our goal isn't to mask the pain or take the edge of it, as medication would, but to restore normal brain function." We aren't trying to ameliorate our want to PMO, we are looking to restore our brain health.

    I'm reading through it very slowly. It's really got a lot of great stuff in it. I got my copy from the library but I'm going to buy one.
  8. Saville

    Saville Well-Known Member

    This is a great concept. Previously when getting the urges I almost always did the "let's get busy dance." It's kind of like having someone firing a six shooter at your feet. The shooter is always in control. Pushing back means we don't have to dance. I tried it out last night. I felt like wanking and the familiar dialogue began in my head. But, then I just pushed back, because I have to be relentless. It worked!

    Still off the booze. I've had two glasses of wine this month and really didn't enjoy them. Wait, that's a lie, I did enjoy one of the glasses, but did not at all feel like a second. I've lost 17 lbs now so that's pretty good. I'm still tubby and have a sucky double chin, but I'll take it! I look younger in one way, but I have more lines on my face, because now I don't have all that fat to smooth things out. lol
  9. Mad Dog

    Mad Dog Well-Known Member

    17 lbs is real good. The next 17-- it just comes along even if you dont notice! Good job "SLIM!":D
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
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  10. Libertad

    Libertad Well-Known Member

    Great stuff. Thanks for taking the time to post it.
    I like especially Point O-Opportunity, to see the urges to PMO as an opportunity to repair our System. It takes parts of the power of my view on the urges to PMO away and makes them even into a constructive view Point on how to see them.
    Saville likes this.
  11. Gil79

    Gil79 Seize the day

    Will remember this one the next time I have urges!
  12. Saville

    Saville Well-Known Member

    Something I never want to forget on this journey is that quitting PMO/fapping is an action. It's great that giving it up promotes a desire to grow and express, but basically we just have to give the shit that is PMO up. I've said this so many times. I guess I repeat it because I need to remind myself that this is so. I'm not writing Newton's Principia. In fact, it was in the act of writing his magnum-opus where he discovered much of what he had intuited.

    We don't need to understand the mechanisms of our lives - we just have to quit pulling at our puds.

    Energy, or the lack of it, takes up a lot of posts here. Many men are just powered down and I include myself in this description. I'm less powered-down than I used to be, but it's still a work in progress. I haven't found a magic pill yet, but I do know that taking care of the little things, the stuff that piles up, frees energy. Also, we have carved deep ruts in our brains. These ruts are the ruts of depression. But, we know now that the brain has neuroplasticity and is able to change. Yes, it is incredibly fucking hard and that's why so few people change their lives in any significant way. It's why we have excuses for every single thing.

    It takes almost no energy to say: I'm going to change my habits. I'm going to get up and go to bed earlier. I'm going to get in shape. I'm going to meditate. I'm going to organize my finances. It takes a little more energy to actually start these things...but, are they self-sustaining? No, they are merely a starting point.

    In every one there is resistances. It could be about anything, like getting a job, going out to meet people, engaging in a new hobby. It's kind of like meeting someone that you like well enough and saying "we should get together sometime!" Of course, you never will, because the motivation to have lunch, or what have you, is just not there. So, what was our motive in saying we'd like to get together? Probably it was just to save face, to be nice. We actually don't want to meet that person. We've had a drink with them before and they are, like you, kind of boring. lol Neither one of you has much to say, or else, one of you has too much to say.

    So, when we say: "I'd like to learn a new language," do we really mean that, or is it a way of just obfuscating the truth? We can't really trust our motives, because our motives are layered with all sorts of rationalization that have accrued on our well-worn path over decades. If we were thrown in the forest all of a sudden we would have to make decision based upon keeping ourselves alive and so our motivation would be real. But, in the warmth of our houses we don't feel that immediacy, that call to action.

    I once heard of a guy who loved betting on the horses. His system was to place a bet on whatever horse was closest in name to the first thing he'd heard that day. If he turned on the radio and the weatherman said "expect heavy rain today" he would look at the betting sheet and see if a horse had a name that resembled that. At first blush this seems like an arbitrary and stupid system. However, he made a little bit of money at it and he got enjoyment from it. I think this is an excellent system for people who are feeling like they don't know where to start. The first thing that occurs to you that day should be where you place your attention. You may have something you think is more pressing, but if "need to sort all the witty things I've ever written down" pops into your mind, then you should go with that. In a way, it's all arbitrary anyway. And, the more pressing things we'll probably get done, all the same.
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  13. Saville

    Saville Well-Known Member

    Been reading more of the book "How the Brain Heals Itself." After a person has a stroke, that leaves one side paralyzed, it has been thought that there's nothing one can do. However, one doctor began putting a casts on the good arms, forcing the stroke patients to try and use the paralyzed side. Without fail all stroke victims began using their frozen appendage. When they had access to their "good" arm the brain made the decision to just shut the other side's neurons down. When we don't use a part of the brain it is kind of like a phone app that isn't being used. Our phone let's us know that it is putting an app to sleep, but the brain just stops using a certain set of neurons. If we extrapolate this to a P addled mind then we can see how our fantasies, our predilections (fetishes), can lead to other parts of our brains shutting down. So, this is part of the problem when we want to get healthy. We are under the belief that a certain part of our mind doesn't work. We believe that all the things we feel at this very moment are the sum total of what we are. We have this idea that only through intense will-power can we ever do anything...this is a tiring thought and one that makes us just give up.

    But, these neurons can be woken up. Not giving into PMO/fapping/fantasy/hookers/sexting/etc makes other parts of the brain literally wake up. Our reward system is so skewed. We view only the flood of dopamine that PMO gives us as being satisfactory. Therefore, if something doesn't mimic this flood then we feel life is hardly worth the effort. We can turn this narrative around. It takes focusing on what we want though and that is quite a lot of work. It doesn't have to be an all day thing, but we must take at least part of our day and concentrate on what we want. We must watch ourselves working, being methodical, picking up one foot and putting the other down.

    I tell everyone my knees are trashed. At one point in my life, before I became a slob, I did a lot of exercise, which the physio guy told me has lead to degeneration of the joint. Also, having all that extra bulk on top of the joints has not done me any favors. Well, just suck up the pain and wait for a knee replacement, right? Wrong! Just last week, because I'm inspired by the book I mentioned above, I have been mentally working on my knees. Before when I would get up from a chair I would always use my arms, because it hurt too much to put weight on my knees. Now, when I get up, I only use the arms to assist a little. I'm forcing my legs to activate. Guess what? My knee pain has reduced. Neuroplasticity is real and it works, but it takes works. We're worth it!
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  14. Gil79

    Gil79 Seize the day

    Making a mental note of this.....
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  15. MissingSelfCompassion

    MissingSelfCompassion Active Member

    Yeah, the Doidge books on the brain are really great. I finally finished "The Brain that Changes Itself." He has that bit about stroke patients in it as well. There's also a chapter on fetishes, video game, and PMO. I read that bit before finding this forum. It's good to learn people have been successful, but it seems far more impactful to come here and talk to you all than read it in some distant book. @Saville, your experiment with you knees is a great one. I often cation others and myself on language because it's powerful. I too have some unneeded weight and bad knees. It sort of hit me hard when you said you had written your knees off. I have done that too. It is probably time to stop feeding myself that language and try a new diet of "Yes I can."
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  16. Saville

    Saville Well-Known Member

    :) Yes we can! :)

    Last night in the Doidge book I read about how injury to the brain can cause noise. By injury he means brain damage by stroke, blunt force trauma, medication induced trauma and other diseases. But, "brain damage" is not just confined to those things, but can also come about because of the way we've lived our lives and how we've thought. I'm probably not going to explain all this perfectly, but here's how I understand it. When a part of the brain suffers damage it goes into shock. Neurons in that portion of the brain die. But, because the brain is so intricately connected, there are neurons on the other side of the brain, not anywhere close to the damage, that begin to suffer. The reason for this is that they are connected in an over-arching way. Kind of like our feet being a long way from our head, but if something goes wrong with the big toe the entire body is thrown off-kilter. So, these neurons on the other side, as well as the neurons adjacent to the damage begin floundering. They are still firing at a reduced level. This creates a kind of noise where we (the brain) find it hard to identify specific things. With all this misfiring and noise going on the brain is basically stuck in flight or fight mode, which neuro guys call the sympathetic system. This, I believe is where PMO dudes are stuck. Where we want our brains to be is in the parasympathetic system, because this where all the healing is done. This is where we sleep better, recall things better, and make better decisions. How do we get there? Well, I've got to read further to find that out. :) It does have to do with sounds, light, and thoughts.

    I am not doing the book justice. I know that I will have to read it again in order to fully digest what he's talking about. But, I feel hope. I feel it in a new way. There are strategies out there that can help us men heal our minds, because it is our minds that have caused us such distress.

    Peace! :)
  17. Libertad

    Libertad Well-Known Member

    Beeing stuck in the flight or fight mode for too Long, I read this online in a study, can cause chronic Fatigue, adrenal fatigue and Burn out which are often associated with Depression also. Interesting stuff, Saville. Please keep us updated when it Comes to the Solutions. Thanks.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
  18. Mad Dog

    Mad Dog Well-Known Member

    Saville I want to respond to your post. As you know I once had a stroke and recovered completely which the medical establishment says you cannot accomplish. Inflammation has a lot to do with this. I don't have the time right now but I will soon.
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  19. Mad Dog

    Mad Dog Well-Known Member

    While Doidge's books contain much capable and valuable information there are some things he does not cover. The most damaging effect on neurons is inflammation. The neurons are not damaged they are blocked. The " damaged" area is surrounded by inflammation. There is a drug used to clear the inflammation used by INR (Institute of Neurological Recovery). Problem is it does not work on every one. If you don't use this option the inflammation will fade and disappear in about 2 years. Btw the drug is very expensive. It's used for head trauma, brain trauma as well as strokes. You must teach the brain what you want. Its ability to do that is called neuroplasticity ( the ability of the brain to learn.) Once it knows what you want it then works to learn how to do it. In the case of a stroke you need a new pathway to the arm and leg affected or any part affected. A new pathway because the " old" one is broken. The ganglia ( neurons) cannot travel the same old way because the part of the brain that controlled it is now either " dead" or completely surrounded by inflammation. Think of a baby: to walk you must first crawl : to crawl tou must first learn how to use the limbs to move. This entire process is neuroplastocity. The brain is learning. Once it does it can repeat the desired motion forever if need be. More to come --- this motion is directly connected to pmo. Hope I am not boring you all.----
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
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  20. Mad Dog

    Mad Dog Well-Known Member

    To continue-- once the stroke is established the brain looks for other ways to achieve the same pattern. So, if lets say the paralyzed side is the right arm and leg with some face numbness and eye reduced vision. The brain will say " well lets use the left side." It recognizes it has another side. The brain makes a statement but does not think. You say no, I want the right side to work and do all the things it did before the stroke. The brain says ok BUT you have to show me on a regular basis. So you do and now the brain begins to accomplish the task you have given it.

    The neurons on the left side are sluggish because all neurons are interconnected in a strange fashion. Remember the neurons are not damaged just blocked by inflammation. Enough about strokes now about pmo. To be continued------
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019

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