There's a Party in My Pants...and Nobody is Invited.

Discussion in 'Ages 30-39' started by Psychosis, Mar 2, 2012.

  1. james_992

    james_992 Guest

    Porn is messed up, both men and women are degrading them selves. But how it is viewed in society is that women are the victims of it and men are the bad guys.
  2. TheDude

    TheDude New Member

    That's because if we are going to talk about proportional "degradation" most pornography is about male domination. Did a bit of reading pornstar "Confessional" type things when I got started in the whole PMO thing and the abuse that these women take physically to contort into the positions men find so desirable and to take the literal pounding and over penetration is very physically damaging to the woman, not to mention the psychological damage. Men in mainstream pornography do not have to deal with that physical aspect nearly as much.
  3. Psychosis

    Psychosis Guest

    Thanks Anselm.

    Yep, and it has the added value of being true I believe. As Chomsky states in one of those videos, if you enjoy this stuff you ought to get your head examined. The point isn't to beat up on ourselves, though. After all, most of us were introduced to this stuff at a young age, and as we all know from Our Lord and Savior Gary Wilson, once some people get started with this shit, the natural tendency is to just ride it all the way to more extreme shit. That's what happened to me.

    In that article that High Achiever posted over in the "Porn Addiction" side of the forum, the guy writing it (who seemed to not be a proper "addict"), as an experiment after a mild reboot, went and looked at some porn on a video site and noted his realization that the women are NOT enjoying it--moreover, there's nothign sexy about it (granted, some type of porn isn't like this. But let's not kid ourselves, we still don't know what's really going on before the camera, or the chain of events leading up to that situation).

    A couple questions to ask ourselves: if it is true that it is obvious to impartial observers that the female performers are not enjoying themselves, 1.)Why didn't we notice this?, and 2.) Even if we did notice it at some level, why are we deriving pleasure from it? We know from YBOP how it works at the neurochemical level, but I'm asking a moral question.

    Again, the neurochemical explanation, in my opinion, sufficiently deprives us of responsibility for this fact--but after that fact is noticed, then we are properly speaking responsible for what we do goign ahead.
    Well, I think it sort of depends on what society you live in (even within the borders of the U.S.A. there's considerable variation I imagine). But i sort of think that the opposite is the case, that mainstream American (and French, British, etc.) society glorifies pornography. And besides, in certain types of porn, e.g. throatfucking, ATM, I wouldn't say the degradation is going equally towards the male and female performers. I could give a dozen other examples, but you know what I mean. TheDude just left a post saying it better than I could.

    "This aggression [that male performs visit upon females] will not stand!"

    Alright, officially starting on my second week here. There is decidedly NO party in my pants, there is nothign at all goign on in my pants.
  4. TheUnderdog

    TheUnderdog Active Member Staff Member

    I might be totally wrong, but most of the porn I viewed showed women really enjoying sex.

    Once in a while I stumbled upon a scene where it was evident the girl wasn't enjoying it that much, so I just changed to another scene. I get no pleasure at all if I believe that the girl is not enjoying it.

    But for the most part the porn actresses (at least the top ones) show great enthusiasm during sex.

    They do act and exaggerate a lot. They are instructed to do that. Normal women do not scream or dirty talk AS MUCH as porn actresses do.

    I don't know. Take for example Esperanza Gomez. She was a famous model in Colombia and decided to do porn because she loves fucking. I've seen plenty of interviews with her. When I see her on porn scenes I think it's pretty evident that she is enjoying it.

    I don't really buy this generalization that porn actresses and prostitutes are victims who hate what they do and are probably drug addicts who were sexually abused sometime in their lives. Granted, some of them are, but many of them aren't.
  5. TheUnderdog

    TheUnderdog Active Member Staff Member

    I agree with this though.

    Probably one of the reasons I never got into those kinds of porn.

    But remember that there are women that do get turned on by weird stuff.

    Proof of that is this interview:
  6. Paulier

    Paulier New Member

    This is starting to make me want to look at porn! I think we all need to be careful that we're not talking about this subject ("Are the women into it or not? Are they enjoying the abuse and degradation?") because we want a 'legitimate' reason to think about porn.

    Psychosis - I appreciate your intelligent investigation/deconstruction of porn and the cultural trends that have enabled its massive growth over the last 50 years. But maybe concentrating on porn and its causes is counterproductive. I think YBOP infers that thoughts of disgust actually exacerbate the problem. I know that my feelings of deep shame have never had any restricting effect on my escalating use over the years and I can understand how these feelings of shame and self disgust have actually contributed to my addiction.

    I think the best way here is to understand what feeds the addiction - then just allow it to die by depriving it of nourishment.
  7. Psychosis

    Psychosis Guest

    I tend to agree much more with TheDude on this one. If you look into some of the confessional accounts of what these women go through, it's truly hideous. And these women the industry trots out to show how great they think it is I tend to trust much less than the accounts of those who aren't profiting from it. You can read some accounts of former porn-stars in that book by Chris Hedges, and it's truly disheartening. I trust these people much more than the fucking businessmen who make money off of it! It's like Lenin said, you look at who benefits...and uh...uh... (I haven't watched Lebowski in a while, so I can't remember exactly what the line is. I do remember that it is great, though.).

    But yeah, I agree that there are some people out there who enjoy being abused. The English poet Swinburne is a classic example.

    There's plenty in the feminist critique of porn that is spurious at best, of course. For instance, you'll often hear anti-porn activists claim that the porn user gets off on control. I don't think there's much evidence for this claim, at least I don't really think it's true in my case--if anything, I think using porn has made me more anti-Capitalist than I was before I got into it heavily.

    Paulier: you may be right that thinking about what porn is is counterproductive. But the fact that it is absurdly fake at best, disgracefully immoral at worst, is pretty strong motivation to stay away from it in my case.

    Day 8 went by pretty easily. I'm pretty sure I'm still flatlining, though, because I really don't have sexual urges at all. I'll probably be updating my journal much less from now on, as I think I'm becoming a bit repetitive. I'm glad to see this forum attracting some new members.
  8. Anselm

    Anselm New Member

    Feminists often claim that porn causes rape, or at least contributes significantly. If that was true, we would have seen an explosion of rape around the late nineties when broadband Internet connections became common and then it would contiunue to rise. Such a thing never happened, actually the incidence of rapes appears to be steadily decreasing, as seen here for example: The claim appears to be false then.

    Porn is crap, but demonising it too much creates an air of 'forbidden fruit' around it, which paradoxically makes it more compelling to the public. I think seeing porn as just boring and ultimately unfullfiling visual stimulation will help us best to stay clean.
  9. Psychosis

    Psychosis Guest

    Yeah, that was actually the other common feminist critique of porn that I regard as being certainly false. It's still made quite often, but even some feminists like Naomi Wolff are recognizing what all of us here know to be the truth: that it actually kills libido.

    This critique emerged in some interviews that serial killer Ted Bundy did with Christian-fascist James Dobson shortly before he was executed. Bundy tried to put the blame on pornography, and puritanical elements in American society were right there to lap it up .
  10. spinergy

    spinergy New Member

    Naomi Wolf is an ass, but I guess even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.
  11. Gucci

    Gucci Guest

    Man I can't even read a discussion about porn without feeling how it triggers!

    I'll steer the ship in another direction: how's it been going lately and how does your experience since your relapse compare to when you first decided to quit?
  12. Harry

    Harry Guest

    I agree with the doctor who said that addicts must not be judged as criminals but as patients with a disorder that must be understood and treated. Feminists uses pornography to criticize men. This does nothing to further our understanding of porn addiction and nothing to resolve it. Although to say that addiction does not lead to other criminal acts is ignoring some of the accounts that shows otherwise. I would say that this issue has not reached its conclusion.
  13. Paulier

    Paulier New Member

    I know what you mean. I was just cautioning against a possible SID (Seemingly Irrelevant Decision): thinking so much about porn could be similar to spending a lot of time on the internet - it could be an unconscious form of sabotage which puts you in a high risk position.

    I value your insightful comments and hope you keep posting.
  14. Psychosis

    Psychosis Guest

    A couple of years ago, she publicly accused Harold Bloom of having made aggressive sexual advances to her when she was an undergrad at Yale, which I believe was way back in the 1980's. She basically accused him long after the fact, making verification of her claims impossible. I think this is shameful.
    WEll, there actually was a study done on this, but from what I recall the results were rather inconclusive. I think they found that porn use contributed to misogynist views in some users, but that these views generally subsided after a few months had passed.

    The feminist critiques which employ these types of arguments tend to rely on anecdotal evidence, like the case of Ted Bundy. But, that's not a very scientific way of approaching the problem.
    I hear you, captain. Thanks for asking that. I think this time around is very much like the first time, but with the invaluable benefit of knowing, both at a mental and bodily level, how shitty and unrewarding the relapse is. Knowing, when I face temptation in the coming days, that I won't receive much satisfaction from it is something important to keep in mind. I was going to write out what exactly happened during my relapse, but it would be triggers-galore. Basically, this time around I'm utterly determined to remove this shit from my life.
    Thanks man. The notion of SID's is really important.
  15. Harry

    Harry Guest

    Interesting journal Psychosis!

    I wanted my journal to be both personal and informative like yours. I mean your thoughts, such as the subject of masculinity and the porn industry, produces engaging conversation. And I remember Harold Bloom being accused of sexual harassment. Although I never really knew Naomi Wolf. I always thought of Harold Bloom as an arrogant critic, a misogynist, and pretty much an onus to literature. I remember he made a list of western geniuses and I think he excluded all the female writers. And good luck on your abstinence. I hope that you progress and recover in good speed.
  16. Joss is Boss

    Joss is Boss New Member

    Hey Psychosis, thanks for your thoughts here, especially around relapsing. It's helped me to think of what would happen after I gave in - that it won't be rewarding, and that as I'm totally committed to overcoming this, I'll just have to start clocking up the days again and hope the withdrawal isn't so bad this time.

    I kind of agree with Paulier, I was searching through anti-porn websites in an unhealthy way at one point. At the same time, this is making me think differently about masculinity (my own and in general) and pornography, something I think worth taking the time to explore. Perhaps its a question of (re-)learning to trust your instincts, or to recognise which are real instincts and which are conditioned/addiction inspired.
  17. Psychosis

    Psychosis Guest

    Glad to hear someone is benefiting from my verbal diarrhea! Naomi Wolf is considered a "third wave" feminist writer, her most famous book being called The Beauty Myth. I haven't read it, but know a bit about its reputation. It's sort of trying to get women to stop constantly thinking about their bodies, which I tend to agree with her is a terrible curse. In recent years, she's dived straight into politics, having written a book warning that the U.S.A. is becoming a fascist state, or something like one at least. The English comedian Ali G did an amusing interview with her, you can see it over on youtube.

    I've actually made peace with Harold Bloom in recent years, and don't really think he's a misogynist anymore. He regularly includes female authors like Jane Austen, Virginia Woolf, Emily Dickinson, etc., as being exemplary in their respective traditions (I believe he even sees Austen as approaching his god, Shakespeare, at times). He's militantly in favor of the view that accidental qualities in an author (gender, race, class, etc.) should not play a role in our evaluations of their works--that they are to be judged on purely aesthetic grounds. I tend to think he is correct in this regard, and share many of his woes about the state of the modern Anglo-American University.

    Yes, I swear that the relapse orgasm was next to nothing. In someone's journal, I believe I said that, if you get the urge to wonder what it's like to feel an orgasm after going so long without one, just pay attention to how the urine exits your penis the next time you take a piss. It's like that, i.e. just the feeling of something passing through the hole in your cock. You must keep this in mind.


    And I think you are right to draw the distinction between thinking about anti-pornography views in a healthy vs. unhealthy way. I'm always glad to be proven wrong, but I think it's immensely helpful to actually look at what pornography is as a motivating tool to get away from desiring it. It really wasn't until I moved outside of the United States for a while that I began to encounter people who thought pornography was morally wrong (this was about 7 years ago). The notion that it "objectified" women was one that I suppose I could see, on a theoretical level, but I would tend to resort to what I now regard as pretty bad objections to that argument: first, that it objectifies men too, so really it's a wash; and, secondly, that the female performers freely chose to do this.

    TheUnderdog is right that the female performers who are the most successful in the trade end up with a greater degree of freedom, as it relates to what they will and will not do (the most famous pornstar of all time famously refused to do boy-girl scenes after she became a household name, because she had the power to do so)--but most of the pornography being made today is what is called "Gonzo", and the tendency of this type of shit is to push further and further in the direction of humiliating the female performer, even symbolically. Even if the woman really likes being humiliated, that doesn't answer why some men enjoy seeing it, and it doesn't validate the institution of pornography any more than a slave enjoying his enslavement justifies the institution of slavery.

    Robert Jensen want to take these trends in porn, and use it to attack Masculinity in general--but his notion of masculinity is a blatant straw man. I don't think real men go around fighting other men, insulting women, and act like Gordon Gecko-like capitalist pigs. I think it's more likely that those are immature men.

    Anyway, had a couple spontaneous erections yesterday, one was kinda weak, the other was at around 75-80%. Progress!
  18. TheDude

    TheDude New Member

    What exactly do you mean by the relapse orgasm was next to nothing?
  19. Psychosis

    Psychosis Guest

    Basically I mean that it was neither an unpleasant nor pleasant sensation--it was just neutral, the way when urine passes through your penis it isn't really pleasant or unpleasant. The chaser effect was me trying to get back to the pleasurable orgasm experience I had before I started to reboot. It's kind of like how some hard drug addicts will try to get their first "high" back in subsequent ones.

    I simply think I've had enough of this shit, period.
  20. 00Schneider

    00Schneider New Member

    Print this post out and lay it as a reminder next to your computer for the next time you will get in danger of a relapse, it will help..:)

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