The realisation, that took me 1.5 years of struggling to learn [LONG THREAD]

Discussion in 'Internet Addiction' started by TonyG, Sep 12, 2020.

  1. TonyG

    TonyG New Member

    We are all here because we realize watching porn and masturbating to it has detrimental effects to our lives. Thus, we are here to stop it. We have all heard from all kinds of people, all kinds of reasons to why we keep doing that. And I don't disagree, there are a lot of factors to why you are watching porn and masturbating to it. Most people say, that the approach each of us take to stop it differs from individual to individual. Though this makes sense, the extent to which our approaches differ is so unimportant, because we all share the same goal and the same problem. My point is, that there is one thing we all do wrong. There is an illusion that we all take for real.
    You see, our addiction is not just a porn addiction, it is a double addiction. First there is the porn addiction and then is the masturbation addiction. Now don't get me wrong, porn is the main culprit, but let me explain. There are two connections in the brain, the first one is watching porn and sexual arousal, and the second one is masturbating and sex. Don't you ever have the urge to watch porn, just to watch porn? Without any intention to masturbate? That's because the brain has linked watching porn with the pleasure of sexual arousal. That's the first illusion. Men don't just get sexually aroused by spotting a woman. Sexual arousal comes from interaction with another person. What a man does to get sexually aroused by a woman walking down the road, is zooming to that ass and suddenly all kinds of porn scenes and fantasies flood the brain. The illusion is that there is no human interaction. Every time you watch porn, every time you fantasize, there is one piece off the puzzle, you are alone. There is no interaction, whether you are thinking, whether you are watching man-made lights changing colors (pixels), holding an anorganic substance (smartphone), there is one thing happening: You are alone. We humans have the natural tendency to connect with others, to love. Why do you get sexually aroused, when there's no other person teasing you? Why do you connect with your phone, with pixels? Well, if you can call that a connection, to me you are still alone. It's okay, we have been tricking ourselves all this time, so the connection is there. But because it's a fraud, trust me, it easily collapses.
    Then there is the masturbation addiction. It happens due the same illusion, but the connection to the brain is different. So, why did I say that porn is the main culprit? That's because usually nobody craves to just masturbate, it all starts with porn. It's only when you are sexually aroused that you get the urge to masturbate. We again humans naturally wanna form connections with other people, get in contact with them and even in sexual manner. The illusion once again is that when you masturbate, there is no human interaction, you are alone. I'm not saying masturbation is bad, even though it might be, but masturbation to porn looks like it is. That's because you never intended to masturbate alone, you fall into the trap of believing that you are with the people you are watching. But again, you are alone. Holding a piece of anorganic matter? Doesn't matter, you are alone. There is no human interaction. That's why sometimes when you get the urge to watch porn, but suddenly somebody comes to your room, or you call somebody, chat with somebody either on the internet or in contact, the urge fades away. Because we want to connect and love, don't get your urges wrong. You cannot connect with yourself, connection by definition requires two ends. Don't fool yourself. When you get the urge, it's an urge to connect, it's our fault that we turn to porn for that.
    To conclude, the foundation of our addiction is just a lie we tell ourselves. It took me by surprise to watch my favourite porn with that in mind and get no urge to masturbate. I thought "But there is no girl, I'm gonna go alone in the bathroom. No sexual intercourse, just me. Nothing is gonna change, again, I'll end up alone.". So I just closed the tabs. And that leads to how I wanna aid with our recovery.

    NoA. Aka No Arousal method by bigbookofpenis (Nice nickname btw). Here is a link to know what I'm referring to:

    The No Arousal method (NoA) is essentially a way to stop watching porn by eliminating any kind of stimuli that could urge you to do so. That includes fantasies or looking at sexy women. While this method works in theory, there are some practical issues I wanna discuss and I am gonna do so while giving you my experience with this method. Before that, I wanna say that it's a good and somewhat reliable way to stop watching porn. I mean, if you never get the urge to, you never will right?
    So, in my case I didn't have to stop watching butts on Instagram, because I had deleted all kinds of social media except YouTube since years ago. I also installed a porn blocker. Changes you can do to your environment can help you make better decisions. After all it was your choice to makes those changes to your environment. It's not internal vs external change, it's the same. You have to have an internal shift to decide to manage your environment. However, relying too much on the environment makes you fall out of place, when something in it falls out of place as well. What I also did was whenever a porn related thought came to mind I quickly scrapped that and snapped into reality. It all worked perfectly until one of my friends at group chat send us a very teasing hentai gif. Even though I closed the app, I had already been exposed to it and couldn't get it off my mind. That day I relapsed and here's what I learned:
    You see, talking to friends is not something we should stop and even if I request they don't send me porn stuff, there is somewhere else I would be exposed to it. Nowadays, in this modern age, I think it's really impossible to not get exposed to porn. Somewhat randomly, but it's bound to happen eventually. Having not been stimulated all those weeks, that gif did the job for me.
    It only makes sense to accept that you will be exposed to porn and just face it. About that, there was a page in that I don't seem to find, in which somebody suggested a different approach to rebooting. Here is how it goes:
    First you fantasize about porn and try to get to the point of climax by just using imagination. When you are just about to reach that point, you delete everything from your mind and leave it blank.
    Our brains, the porn - conditioned ones expect a reward after porn. So, by stopping everything last minute, you are essentially rewiring your brain to link porn with disappointment. As you can tell I experimented with that as well. My issue was the same, whenever I got exposed to actual porn, I could not resist, it's not as easy to stop as fantasy.
    Finally, learning from all those wonderful people, we conclude to this method:

    Do you remember when I was talking about the illusions we have? That there is no human interaction, the thing that we really desire, in PMO? Thinking about that can make you not get aroused even by porn. If you really acknowledge the fact that you are alone, and that what you used to believe was people is just your phone, there nothing to arouse you from porn. If you zoom out of the screen, you can clearly see yourself, alone, in a room. Say to yourself: "I'd like to have some fun with somebody, I'd like to be aroused or even have sex. Now though, I'm alone and that's impossible until I reach out to somebody." and trust me, you are just gonna close the tabs out of pure disappointment of porn. Even if you get turned on, there is the second part of the addiction to stop. Say "I'd really like to have sex now, but I can't because I'm alone. When I'm masturbating and even after I'm done, during all that I'm alone." and see yourself getting turned off.
    I suggest doing this everyday for sometime. Open a porn tab intentionally, just to realize that it is not real and get the experience into your head, that you can be exposed to porn and not get aroused. I choose to open a porn tab of all things, because I believe in our world it's impossible to not get stimulated. You have to be able to reject watching porn as you are exposed to a porn site. After all, that's how you stop the addiction, not by betting on luck that you are never gonna get exposed to porn, but by being exposed to it and rejecting it face on.
    Don't worry that you might be supporting the porn site you will visit by providing traffic. You are really saving yourself by a lifetime's worth of visits. Do this drill daily until you feel like there is no point in opening a site, if the only thing that's going to happen is disappointment and closing the tab.

    To sum it up, we humans want interaction with other humans, generally with the world. We want to love the world, so we can be happy however it might be. Watching porn, getting turned on by it and ending up masturbating to it, all happens because we lie to ourselves. In our desire to connect, we end up by ourselves. Don't mask such egocentric activities, as love and connection, when it's exactly the opposite, loneliness and isolation. Believe in this simple and well known truth, explain it to yourself, do research, do whatever it takes to understand that truth, for our porn addiction lies in lie.
    JosephKony69 and Doper like this.
  2. TonyG

    TonyG New Member

    I know this sounds obvious, but until people realise this, they never quit watching porn. We have all told to ourselves that this time I'm gonna reach the ninety days or something, really believing that we are never gonna do it again, only to find ourselves back into the same old behaviour. As somebody who has recovered, I can tell you ONE thing: out of the hundreds of times you have told yourself to stop (I'd been struggling for 1.5 years), you KNOW the time that you stop watching porn forever. That's because, it's nothing about feeling lucky, that you will never fall for that crap again. It's exactly like this: I know for fact that porn is bad for me and thus, I don't like it and I am not gonna watch it. At that point, even if the craziest of urges come your way or you put porn for yourself to watch, you are genuinely not gonna have the slightest of interest, because you will know. My advice is to research and learn everything, read as much as you can on YBOP site, even read the book "YBOP" (i did) and love your relapses. Write your experience about them and what you believe you should do next time. All that to make it progressively clear to yourself that porn is of no use for you. Don't be afraid of your addiction, don't hide from it, just have fun and trust that even if you keep relapsing, that you keep learning. The feeling that you get when you know you are done, is not like "I hid every cue, I avoided all the urges, so now it's impossible to get me", but it's this one: When you are face to face with porn and you don't get turned on, your heart doesn't race and you just stay there thinking: "What a fucking lie my addiction was.". You learn to live in this society full of porn cues, not giving a fuck, because the association of porn with disappointment is crystal clear.
    It's said in the book "YBOP" and reported from a lot of us here, that eradicating the cues will help you not crave porn, but even after months of not watching porn, the connections to the brain won't die off. So what do we achieve by avoiding cues? Are we waiting for that one time, after 4 months clean, to slip back into old habits? Hoping that connections die off is big waste of time. The answer is simple, it's futile hiding from something that's in your brain. Just face it. It's not harder, it doesn't take more time, it's exactly the opposite. Quit half assing your recovery with tweaks and get to the point, realise that it is bad, you don't want it.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
  3. KingBoss123

    KingBoss123 New Member

    You are absolutely right
    TonyG likes this.
  4. DoneAtLast

    DoneAtLast Well-Known Member

    Yeah, you've got good thoughts here and I largely agree. Things are changing, but for a long time many in these communities wanted the culprit to be the narrowest target of high speed internet porn so that everything else could escape self reflection.

    One important datum, even if unscientific, is that many who try quitting porn without quitting masturbation have poor results. Many relapse, and the ones who can keep some stasis there often don't experience any sort of recovery. One defense I often hear is that if someone is masturbating to "real experiences" then it isn't artificial. Really though, if you're just running that old film strip in your head of making out with that girl five years ago, you've basically just manufactured your own porn, on the silver screen of your own brain.

    Sex is supposed to be other-oriented. This is something I knew intellectually through my own porn addiction, but after recovering it became painfully obvious. I crave the relational aspects far more than the erotic ones. Living on the orgasmic/dopamine/arousal end of sexuality only is like subsisting on candy bars and cheap beer. Upgrading to fine chocolate and craft beer doesn't do you much better. Unfortunately, even many sexual relationships are purely based on stimulus and self-absorption. I'm not sure how many people feel real bonding and connection through a Tinder hookup. I suspect not too many.

    Yup. Cardinal rule of porn addiction recovery: porn lies. Don't try to recover from porn using what porn has told you as a ground work. My own addiction was very much a Jekyll/Hyde one. I was someone trying to live one life, but would go home and fap away at other times. The day time version of me had a vision of where I wanted to be. I thought that meant that the lies didn't work on me, and I'd see through them: it was just a matter of the day time me conquering the fap-time me. I likely had an advantage over many whose worldview is more porn oriented, but I still was in for a lot of lessons along the way.

    You nailed it, that was exactly my experience as well! I often describe it as the cigarette smoker who goes from smelling a cigarette to having a craving, to smelling a cigarette and being disgusted by the smell, and not knowing what the appeal ever was. Of course, ex-smokers will still get those moments of tension, stress and other triggers that would make them want a cigarette... but they don't reach for the pack and the lighter anymore.

    I remember the night I realized I was on the other side of my addiction at long last very well. I had a been doing streaks of several weeks/over a month back to back, and it had been a couple months since my last relapse. I was watching Netflix and I saw something that, while totally PG rated, just happened to be a perfect trigger. My heart raced, my brain fogged up. I went into the computer, and half accepted that this was going to be the end of a streak, and I'd have to start a new one soon. I *ehem* got into position, disabled my blocker, and even typed in the URL of one of my go-to sites in the browser, but didn't press enter. I then just sat there and zoned out. My heart eventually eased and my brain cleared. I looked at the browser, still at Google but with the URL typed in, and said to myself "I don't want to do this anymore". I shut down my computer and went back to finish my movie. I've been on that "streak" since then, three years in a few weeks. Yeah, I'll feel triggered sometimes, but I never actually want to do that again.
    Bilbo Baggins, TonyG and Doper like this.
  5. Dr. Freud

    Dr. Freud Member

    how exaggerated you are.
    This comparison is exaggerated.
    It seems to me that you have gone from addiction to the extreme of even repression, of affective repression.

    you hold back so much that I worry that you will be alone forever.
  6. Dr. Freud

    Dr. Freud Member

    you are using this forum wrong:

    the purpose of the forum is to
    abandon pornography.

    I suggest you refrain from your personal puritanism.

    I understand that you are a religious and moral person. But that must be out of this forum.
  7. DoneAtLast

    DoneAtLast Well-Known Member

    Fantasizing about a years old sexual encounter while masturbating makes a person less alone....?

    Puritanism is labeling sexuality as bad. I'm labeling sexuality as good and saying that pornography destroys it. If things like PIED aren't very real examples of this in action then I don't know how else to explain to you.

    The moderators have asked that I not discuss on here what belongs or doesn't belong on this forum. I suggest to you that if you don't like my posts you click the "Report" button and speak to them directly.
  8. Thelongwayhome27

    Thelongwayhome27 Well-Known Member

    Who are you to say what can be or not on this forum ?

    Not to mention you've been here for less then a month ...

    For what it's worth, I agree with this as well. I would only add that pornography addiction is often a symptom of something problematic with sexuality already. But that's just my personal take.
    Pete McVries and Deleted User like this.
  9. Dr. Freud

    Dr. Freud Member

    What worries me about this forum sometimes is that discussions about pornography and its consequences end up being confused with moralistic and nonsensical discussions about very healthy things such as free sex, relationships, casual sex, sexual practices that are part of our life.

    It's normal and healthy remembering people that one day we loved and had sex with them, or the sexual practices that are part of civilization that really have nothing to do with pornography.

    I suggest to the members of this place that they refrain from speaking negatively about sexuality.

    The purpose of these forums should be exppress rejection of something that is robbing men of the ability to love and desire: pornography. Nothing more.

    It is because of people like you that these types of forums have such a bad reputation and are destined to die, because instead of being forums or websites that educate they end up being the oracle of the moralists.

    The purpose of these forums is to regain happy sexuality, promote real sex to the fullest extent, and reject pornography. Only that.

    Regarding fantasies: I am not very fond of fantasizing, but it seems to me that human beings have fantasized for thousands of years.

    That has nothing to do with pornography, gentlemen. I share the idea that fantasizing is useless, but let's not forget that human beings have fantasized about sex for thousands of years anyway before the porn had existence.
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  10. Dr. Freud

    Dr. Freud Member

    The important thing is not how long someone has been registered here.

    The important thing is progress. :)Two and a half months ago I gave up pornography. I am almost three months old with success. I used a lot of pornography in the past.

    I haven't used pornography for two months and the truth is I don't trade myself for anyone.:)

    I feel great. Now: ups and downs I have, but that's normal. That is part of the recovery process. I am recovering very well. Fortunately I did not start in my teens and so I am seeing huge improvements quickly.;):D
  11. Thelongwayhome27

    Thelongwayhome27 Well-Known Member

    I think that's great and I hope you can keep going.

    However I don't think that someone's progress gives him the prerogative to tell other users on here what to post or not. I just thought the tone of that phrasing was disrespectful and struck me as somewhat arrogant. Not to mention that it is directed at a user that from what I have seen is always respectful on here.

    Actually I'll rephrase perhaps a user can suggest what isn't helpful on here. Perhaps a mod can even enforce this element. But again, it's in the way such a thing is stated to a fellow user.

    And regardless of your current progress, the fact that you are new to the forum, in my humble opinion, does factor in to saying such a thing. It's like an aggravating element to what was already a tad of an arrogant comment.

    And when it comes to talking porn addiction, or sex addiction - personally I think it's very legitimate to discuss sexual beliefs a person has - which indeed often will touch with the "spiritual sphere" - i.e. moral and religion.
    Bilbo Baggins, TonyG and Pete McVries like this.
  12. axebattler

    axebattler Member Staff Member

    Okay, quite a lot going on here.

    Let's forget about morality for a moment. Imagine a guy who is addicted to porn, watches it most days and so on. He discovers forums like this one and decides he wants to try going ninety days without porn or masturbation, just as an experiment.

    In my experience, if you try this kind of thing, even the most "innocent" and "healthy" fantasises can, unfortunately, lead to a reset or relapse.

    You could argue that maybe someone should allow himself to MO to these healthier fantasies for a while first, before eventually trying to cut down or eliminate masturbation as much as possible. There's a blog which talks about this approach, more or less, though I haven't read it all:

    But anyway, we all have different motivations and preferred approaches to quitting, so we should try to understand and respect each other.

    Another point. Watching pornography can create porn-induced fetishes, and can influence a person's sexual activities in "real life". So you can't really say all "consensual" sex is good while porn alone is bad. A person may feel the need to avoid sexual activities and again, fantasising, for a time, in order to recover from these porn-induced fetishes and porn-induced influences.

    At the same time, a "sex-positive" viewpoint is welcome.

    There's probably more to say but that's about all I have time for right now.
  13. Dr. Freud

    Dr. Freud Member

    Where is the willpower?

    That is no excuse. In these two and a half months, desires, cravings, fantasies have passed through my mind. I have had dreams, I have gone for a walk and I have seen beautiful women in the street, I have remembered moments with nostalgia and yet it has not been a reason to masturbate.

    When you truly decide to change, it will be so.
  14. Dr. Freud

    Dr. Freud Member

    Heyy: I was reading this. I stopped reading it until I found out that whoever writes it confesses as a Christian.

    This is useless my dear friend. This is a blog written by a Christian moralist. Sorry if I'm arrogant but this is rubbish.

    Remember that I am Colombian. Colombians are Latinos. We Latinos see things in a very different way.
  15. axebattler

    axebattler Member Staff Member

    Congratulations on your amazing willpower.

    I don't automatically stop reading something if a person mentions their religion or lack thereof.

    You don't speak for all Latinos. I've seen very different opinions on these kinds of forums from Latinos.

    Could it be a coincidence that this forum was trolled by someone claiming to be a pro-porn Colombian not too long ago? Hmm..
    Pete McVries likes this.
  16. NewStart19

    NewStart19 Well-Known Member


    First things first, please let me apologize for unintentionally hijacking your topic and bringing it down a rabbit hole that really shouldn't be the focus of what your are trying to convey. I personally would like to thank you for sharing your experiences and reflections with all of us. Thank you for your contributions to this site. Unfortunately, I will derail the original thrust of this topic to shed some light on a potential issue that I think other members (and moderators) should be aware of. Again, I offer my sincere apologies.


    Attention fellow members,

    I was supposed to be on hiatus from the forum—although I was still checking in from time to time without logging in (shame on me)—but I decided to login today and post because I noticed something that I thought was concerning, and I wanted to bring this to your attention.

    While I cannot attest to the actual identity of @Dr. Freud, I can say that I have reason to believe that he/she is likely a toxic poster that has popped up both on this forum and Reboot Nation, though under the guises of different usernames.

    It’s difficult to provide adequate evidence since the other accounts have been deleted (either by moderators or the user him/herself), but I will try to explain why I think it is possible that they are one and the same person.

    While I haven’t intentionally been following this user, I have been a semi-active member both on this site and Reboot Nation (RN). During my time spent reading and posting in miscellaneous topics, I have come across various instances of multiple users who have consistently posted toxic, inflammatory, unhelpful or troll-like comments in their posts. Interestingly, their accounts have either been deleted by the user him/herself or by a moderator. They include ILoveBangBros (or something like that; can’t remember the specific name as the account doesn’t exist anymore on RN, but the name alone should suggest the intent of the poster; it’s like someone going to a recovery forum for alcoholics and posting with a user name like WastedEveryDay&LovingIt or Guiness&GreyGoose4Life), Cesar Conto (an account that no longer exists on YBR and that interestingly had an image of Sigmund Freud as its avatar...reminiscent of a particular poster in this topic), and—though this one is a bit more tenuous—jorge2166 (a deleted account that used to be on RN; a few posts still exist as a guest, though they didn’t seem as inflammatory as others I’ve seen; he did have some friction with a moderator there however: see Exhibit A and Exhibit B. Control + F/Command + F to find jorge2166 comments). Here are the points of commonality that makes me suspect they are all the same person (take note that you will have to take my word for some of this; again, it's difficult to amass evidence when the users and their posts are repeatedly removed):

    ① The users have stated that he/she is from Colombia
    ② He/she often brings up the subject of morality when discussing porn and porn use (to my recollection in a dismissively pejorative manner); addiction and PISD can be discussed without reference to morality, but that doesn't mean users can't express and debate what they perceive the overlap is between their addictions/dysfunctions and morality
    ③ He/she brings up his/her latinx identity and how that makes their outlook different than others, sometimes with a hint of superiority (nothing against latinx posters and the role cultural lenses have on affecting how we view morality--and the world and existence at large--...but it is a little strange how the pattern I've recognized from these posters is that it is often framed within religion, even though sites like this and this show how Colombia is a heavily Christian I am not so sure how being Colombian offers you a unique perspective on morality free from the confines of conventional religion; from an individual standpoint, one could make a more convincing argument)
    ④ Has offered to introduce other users to women from their country so that they may have some sort of sexual encounter (both instances may have been toward user DepressedAndOut (RN account) and Depressed&Out (YBR account)). Moderators may want to follow up with this member (assuming of course that he is comfortable taking about it) in order to glean additional information about the comments of a potentially toxic user who might be circumventing the rules of conduct in place on forums such as YBR or RN

    The first time I noticed this pattern of behavior was on RN’s 30-39 sub-forum, in a topic titled 36 year old virgin dealing with porn addiction and PIED. In it, a user named something like ILoveBangBros posted some inflammatory content that was ultimately deleted by a moderator (and I assume the account was as well; it no longer exists on the site…though I suppose the user could have deleted it themselves). If you scroll to the bottom of page 5, you will see three comments in a row: one by mattdes, one by DepressedAndOut, and one by RN moderator malando. It’s difficult to get the full context--due to the absence of the original, now-deleted posts of the toxic user, but the former member with BangBros in their name posted some content that was ultimately deleted. As malando describes in his post:

    “Sorry, I missed Depressed and Out's post and should have deleted it because it was out of context after I had already deleted the offending users posts that it referred to. D & O was not out of line at all. The posts were very offensive and completely absurd. He is a disgruntled former member who comes back periodically to protest the cause here at RN and claims to be all about freedom and shattering myths about porn. He is now a porn-advocate because he has failed to conquer his addiction so he took a "if you can't beat em, join em" approach. I know this to be true because he used to post desperately about not being able to give up and how bad porn was. He isn't able to be permanently banned because he uses a VPN to sign up each time. I delete his posts and accounts each time I see them, but sometimes they linger for 24 hours or so if I'm busy.”

    His/her use of a VPN to circumvent the method of blocking unhelpful posters makes me doubt the authenticity of this user's posts. Don't get me wrong. I personally want forums like this to be inclusive to all members, even those that I don't agree with or who come up with weak arguments but push them forward as legitimate counters to the porn-addiction model. If we aggressively silence those that don't agree with us, I think it really detracts from the porn-recovery/porn-education community's attempts to help better inform our societies about the downsides of pornography use. But this dubious behavior is something that deserves some additional looking into, because if we do have members who have malintent interacting with people on these forums who are struggling and are trying to do what they can to get a better grasp on the problems in their lives, the negative impact of such comments could potentially really hurt the progress of these members' recovery journey.

    If any moderators on this site are concerned or interested in the pattern I may have noticed, I recommend reaching out to RN’s malando and getting some details about this user and his/her alternate accounts. Malando’s input may help better clarify if these posters are connected. If Depressed&Out is comfortable talking about his experience with these users on RN and YBR, you may want to get his input as well.

    Secondly, I noticed that their was a user on this site named Cesar Conto who posted in member Depressed&Out’s topic. While this account no longer exists (whether it was deleted by the user or a moderator here is a mystery to me), you can find other posts that refer to Cesar’s posts, such as Doper’s comment, “Cesar - I can't speak for anyone else but I would LOVE to go and live in Colombia for a while....Learning Spanish is on my list.” This was after Cesar suggested that D&O come to Colombia to hook up with some women there (reminiscent of something I saw in ILoveBangBros post on RN). Also, as I mentioned earlier, Cesar Conto changed his/her profile picture to an image of Sigmund Freud, and what is the name of this current user I am bringing into question? Dr. Freud, although this time he/she has opted to not use this avatar this time around.

    While the evidence I have provided is limited (what can you do when so much content has been deleted?), and there definitely is a certain degree of speculation in the pattern I am suggesting, I hope that any of those interested--moderator or not--do some additional follow up research to determine what type of presence @Dr. Freud is on this forum and what his underlying intent is on posting on these forums.

    That's it from me. Sorry if my post wasn't as thorough or structured as it could have been.

    Take care all.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
    TonyG, Pete McVries and axebattler like this.
  17. DoneAtLast

    DoneAtLast Well-Known Member

    Yikes, this has blown up.

    A few thoughts:

    1) The biggest problem of trying to map out a life without porn is a pre-existing prejudice to religion and religiosity, and ultimately any/every argument against artificial sexual stimulation and for real sexual relationships lands on their ears as being "religious", "puritanical", "repressed", you name it*. Yes, my avatar is of St. Raphael (there is no patron saint of porn addiction recovery, though he'd be a good candidate), but none of my broad arguments have ever mentioned God, scripture, religion, or anything else. I will only bring it up if I think a particular poster would be interested. My arguments, to the best of my ability, rely on basic understandings of how humanity and human relationships work. There is real biology and evolutionary science put forward by agnostic/atheistic scientists to back it up. It doesn't matter to many people. Their hatred and disgust with religion blinds them. They'll never be able to appreciate real sexuality as long as this obsession continues. I'm not saying they need to even like religion, but they do have to at least say "a stopped clock is right twice a day" or else they end up stuck in this position where morally they want to glorify everything about artificial sexual stimulation as progressive, but also walk away from it because it is destroying their lives. Go ahead and hate religion as much as you want - just don't throw out the baby with the bath water. These arguments never go anywhere. No discussions ever go anywhere when the focus is on what the other person is rather than what they say, and that is what happens here. The argument I made in this thread is a good example... I categorized masturbating to a five year old memory of a sexual encounter as outside the boundaries of genuine sexuality. I'm not saying no one can disagree with me, but.... really? If I think having one single sexual encounter and spending the rest of your life playing with yourself to the vague, worn out memory of it is something less than a healthy sexuality, my only reasoning must be my dopey, irrational, oppressive religion...?

    *(These are straw man arguments, and the puritanical elements are largely fringe groups, and disproportionately present in the United States. Heck, the Pope was in the news for recently saying in a homily that sex was supposed to be pleasurable... from an article about it: "“Sexual pleasure is there to make love more beautiful and to guarantee the perpetuation of the species,” the pope said. Prudish views of sex taken to an extreme “have caused enormous harm, which can still be felt strongly today in some cases,” he added." What he says is actually very much consistent with what his predecessors have always said.)

    2) Porn addiction recovery necessitates two philosophical questions for anyone wanting to quit. First, what sex is not. Second, what sex is. On the first point, discussion and consensus is pretty clean. porn =/= sex. That is why is doesn't satisfy and works against real sex, nowhere more clearly and literally than in PIED. We can differ in small ways in how broadly we define those things that are falsely sexual along with porn (see my above example of masturbating to fading memories), but we mostly agree across all styles of life and creeds. That is why we are all here, presumably. The second question is inevitably going to divide us, and that is where we have to be open minded and respectful. In my opinion, the second question is always going to logically follow the first, unless you plan on living asexually for the rest of your life. (Yes, people like that have posted here before.) If you don't confront that question, you're going to keep relying on porn and that prior world view to tell you the "truth", and you'll live life either on the verge of a relapse constantly, or going down some very strange rabbit holes, out of the pan and into the fire. Again, these are necessary questions to quit porn. If diving into this material immediately makes one a prude, then that is a set up for didactic failure. We may as well just take down the entire site, because every discussion possible will devolve into the prudes and the liberated yelling at each other.

    3) Maybe this thread needs some clean up? Maybe moved to a spin off thread? The OP might stop back to see how his post did here and find one heck of a dumpster fire waiting for him. It always frustrates me when we get (much needed) new posters and they just find a freak show and immediately leave. In any case, I will personally bow out after this post, since I don't see anything useful coming after this. I've probably already posted too much, but I'll leave it up to the mods to delete if they see fit.
    TonyG and Pete McVries like this.
  18. Doper

    Doper Well-Known Member

    Amen to that!
    ....Though I still haven't learned.
  19. DoneAtLast

    DoneAtLast Well-Known Member

    I thought this thread was deleted! Good thing I check my alerts.

    I appreciate your sense of self-irony. It ain't easy. Our culture has spent 50+ years telling us everything we ever knew about sex was wrong. Boomers seem convinced that they invented sex in the '60s. They assumed everything up to that point was Leave it to Beaver, married couples living in separate beds showing up at the breakfast table fully dressed, when really that sort of hyper sanitized world in the '50s was the exception of history rather than the rule. After decades of being told everything is a lie and all you have to do is dive down these rabbit holes to figure out your sexuality and get past your hang ups, what the heck are we supposed to do when we find up that the one piece of reliable advice we'd been getting turns out to be bullshit? Everything else got burned down.
    Pete McVries likes this.
  20. TonyG

    TonyG New Member

    Hahaha, I got a hell of a laugh reading this. Nobody had read my post for the first 3 consecutive days, so I just let it be. Now that I logged in I was suprised to see all this. First of all, thank you @DoneAtLast . I agree with what you're saying and I'm happy you agree with me too. As for the other guy, I don't mind him, trolls do what they do (to me it was funny at least). Mods, you do your thing. I want people to see my post, so as long as that's possible I think it's fine. Bye for now though, I'm not gonna be logging in any time soon except if it randomly crosses my mind. Thanks for everything guys :)

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