The deep rabbit holes that porn sends us down

Discussion in 'Pornography Addiction' started by DoneAtLast, Jun 20, 2021.

  1. DoneAtLast

    DoneAtLast Well-Known Member

    Hey guys, this'll probably be long. I've earned that reputation, after all.

    The effects of porn and porn addiction always seem to show up on my radar. Maybe because I had my own struggles with it, I don't know. But, it is all around. Lately I've been thinking about how weird our collective ideas of sex are, and how the internet has created an entirely different ecosystem that frankly is destroying men. In the early/mid-2000s there were all kinds of click baity pseudo-scientific articles written about kinks, exploration, and so on and I'm not sure how much of it comes from that, how much comes from porn, and how much comes from the ability to find like-minded people and dive into the rabbit holes, but it has definitely gotten weird out there.

    What really inspires this is a screenshot of a post (from Reddit?) that I saw being passed around on Twitter. A man is wearing a Tena pad, because... that's his kink, I guess. He's been "leaking" (urinating?) into it all day, and stops at a convenience store to change it. He describes going to the bathroom and digging through the trash (explaining it as though this is his normal routine) and lucky him, he finds two nearly identical used tampons, looking to be very fresh. He takes them, puts them on the inside of his fresh Tena pad, and talks about how he's getting off by peeing in there and it all swirling around touching his junk. On his way out he makes a point to talk to the young woman at the counter because he assumes they were hers (his reasoning seemed legit), and mentions that he makes a point to return to see her again because this is so hot for him. He describes the mix of his urine and the young woman's blood in his Tena pad when he gets home as "glorious". He ends his story by saying that when he got home he jacked off really hard to it at the thought of this young woman menstruating.

    No one is born like this. This isn't any guy's natural state. What would this guy have been like before the internet? My guess is that he would have cocked his head to the side a bit when tampon commercials came on TV, would be horribly awkward talking/hearing about these basic biological functions and maybe (MAYBE) would have had a couple crumpled back issues of Penthouse under his mattress. He would have lived in blissful ignorance that any of these fixations/discomforts/oddities could ever affect his sexuality.

    Instead, he got it into his head that these kinks of his were immutable and he needed to explore them/express them/whatever, and in the process amplified them to an unbelievable level, like a monster movie scientist making an ant the size of a city bus.

    This is why I hate porn. It destroys men. It doesn't make us prudes or puritans to say this. I just want men to have normal sexuality again. Oh, and also creeping on young ladies working at convenience stores a whole lot less.
     
  2. Doper

    Doper Well-Known Member

    Do we have reason to believe that porn caused this gentleman to act this way? I personally have never seen any porn content that would make me want to make a bloody tampon and pee vinaigrette or coulis. I think he hatched this plan up entirely himself, and think that in fact, porn is more likely to put one on the path of more homogenous, garden variety perversions (which can still be pretty hardcore). This guy was doing his own thing, and for that I'd say he's got a certain sense of style...

    Can we say that without exposure to porn (a sexual outlet), it is less likely a person with a clearly imaginative mind, will go full gonzo like this cavalier specimen of refined sexual pursuit?

    As terrible as porn's side effects can be, it IS an outlet, and an easy one. An argument might be that in the case of having no outlet, one might take more time and effort in scrounging the rubbish for ornaments and baubles. Had he merely nutted before leaving the house, might the quest for squishy knickknacks lose its luster in the mind's eye? ...Quite possibly the gentleman would have instead retired to his quarters for a nap.

    I believe people with every sexual kink under the sun existed before porn. They may not be born with it, but everyone has a brain and an imagination and many times other willing experiment participants. I think the average person can cook up some pretty dirty stuff in their heads without the help of porn. I know I did when I was a kid before I'd ever laid eyes on that first Hustler mag.

    As well, I see it as an Overton window sort of situation. The porn I will or won't relapse to is basically the same thing I've been watching for twenty years....You as an individual will generally only go so far and you eventually just stick with your thing(s), IMO. Even if I consume P for another 50 years, I will not end up rifling through garbage cans for bloody trinkets and treasures.
     
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  3. DoneAtLast

    DoneAtLast Well-Known Member

    Good point. I don't know if porn put him on this path. I do think the internet as a whole did.

    The path for him that I imagine is: step one: watch porn. Step two: menstruation is weird, maybe I'll google it. Step three: I wonder if these porn girls ever.... *click click click*... step four: discover a message board community of menstruation fetishists step five: This is who I am, boy am I glad I'm not repressed anymore. Step six: revisionist memory - he remembers his older sister getting her period when he was six and learning about it early before he was ready stuck with him giving him this odd discomfort, and he retroactively interprets it as jealousy for what his sister experienced and wants to menstruate himself.

    Again, in my own imagination, it is easy to see a guy who is weirded out by the whole menstruation/tampon thing, to a point where it is a quirk, maybe even a fixation. I think of the HOCD guys. They were never gay, but maybe were scratching their heads more than other straight guys about why some guys are more attracted to other guys than women. Especially when guys hear about homosexuality before hitting puberty, it can be a weird thing that gets stuck in their heads because they don't understand it and can obsess. But, the HOCD guys, by definition, are not gay, they just have an odd fixation that they plant in some soil and give lots of water and light, and it turns into a full blown obsession.

    Or, maybe a guy who is attracted to women and finds them beautiful has trouble reconciling in his brain that their bodies also do gross things, like drop a deuce. *click click click* now skat porn is his thing. Would that dude have been interested in that if porn wasn't there? It is doubtful. The most that would've happened, I would guess, would be the first time he had a girlfriend/wife take a nasty dump right before he used the bathroom it sort of weirded him out that this beautiful woman also does this sometimes. Since he never masturbated to it, his brain never made the bridge between this odd thing and ejaculation, so it never became a fetish. It was just a weird cognitive dissonance.

    Some paraphilias make sense to be natively cultivated, but porn has shown itself to be able to amplify them beyond recognition, or even create them. At this point we're so heavily saturated with porn that there is no control group. We'd probably have to find psychological studies on paraphilia going back pre-internet to really know. Woody Allen had a bit in a movie about exhibitionists and a girlfriend who had to have sex in public places to be aroused and a monster movie bit of being chased by a giant breast through central park and shooting milk at him, so this stuff was definitely around. But, it isn't anywhere near the same level.

    I do think it is an open question how many are purely created from the ground up and how many are just amplified, and how many would have manifested without porn, and it is something I struggled with in a thread a while ago regarding my own particular flavor of weird. Plus, keep in mind that the whole point of Pavlov's experiment was that dogs had zero reason to salivate to bells ringing natively. It was purely created through a reward system and associations. I 100% believe that if you masturbate to ANYTHING long enough it will become your fetish. Saturday Evening Post, Beethoven, classic Coke bottles, you name it. Often the better question is why you started masturbating to it to begin with.

    Also a different matter that I'm sure we've discussed elsewhere, but I'm not a fan of the "healthy release" idea. If nothing else, I felt like I had more pent up sexual energy when I was masturbating at least once a day than I do when I don't play with myself at all. It is like how sugar addictions leave you hungry all the time. You can be in a massive caloric surplus but still feel like you're starving.
     
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  4. Doper

    Doper Well-Known Member

    I'm just having fun playing devil's advocate here, BTW.

    I think a lot of these examples you are using qualify as Howard Hughes-level OCD. I mean, where on the distribution curve would you put these people?

    But maybe this really is ... "The way of the future".

    I think the lack of a control group may make an argument in the opposite direction. If literally everyone is drowning in total freakshow porn, then I think that proves that it isn't turning everyone into freaks (...in a bad way). If this were doing what you're saying chicks would be snapchatting (who am I kidding I don't even know WTF that is...lol)....Young chicks would be ... Instagramming pictures of themselves with captions like "I just took a TOTALLY fresh dump on my boyfriend's chest"....and they would get upvoted (or whatever they do there) and shared and....compared....You know, stuff like that.

    <edit> - I forgot about Shotzi Blackheart ... Maybe you're right about everything.

    ...Moving on.
    Another point is that without the internet, you would have never heard of Bloody Tampon Guy (BTG), unless he was on the local area news, police blotter, or at the local arts and crafts fair selling odd but very realistic Christmas tree ornaments. The internet AMPLIFIES our view of reality, and that can either mean showing us what used to be hidden or blowing things way out of proportion to actual statistical fact.
    Even if everyone had massive amounts of free porn, but no internet megaphone, I don't think we would think much of this stuff at all. And the weird shit froths to the top, so we must see BTG as WAY out there on the distribution of sexual proclivities. He was weird enough to be a Reddit sensation....And you've gotta be a pretty big weirdo to stake that claim. I really liked the way you wrote his story though, BTW.

    Then there is the question of "if people aren't hurting other people, does it even matter" ... I'm of the opinion that it doesn't. I have, over time, became even more of the mind that ED is really the big problem here. And what should be focused on.
    Back before I knew about PIED, it would take hardcore compilations to get me half hard, but then after watching that, I would go right to work and deal with attractive women, and be cool (...or as cool as Doper can muster). It was only after knowing about PIED and the SHAME involved in relapse that would turn me into a total weirdo around people.
    How many people on this site seem like total perverted sex maniacs? ... I can't really think of any. I think any mental/emotional issues of anyone on here is separate from porn. And you'd think this would be ground zero for people with issues to speak freely and anonymously about their totally bonkers fetishes.

    I agree with you on "healthy release"....because with PIED you can't relapse or you're Fvcked. But also because I think for MOST PEOPLE, jerking off and watching porn is absolute loser behaviour. Young men should not be watching porn or jerking off. Unfortunately that ship sailed for me so hopefully the next generation can have better role models and information dispersion (ha...not likely). But if some old grandpa who's wife passed and is in the hospital on his last legs, well damn, if he wants to watch some dirty ass porn get to it, sir. The only reason it has any pull is it's free. If prostitutes were free or dirt cheap I'd be purchasing a few a week, without any guilt or shame and I'd never watch porn again. But I realize these values (delusions?) are an extreme hindrance to defeating porn addiction. Porn is dead to me, but the delusion is very much still alive.

    That is why DoneatLast has prevailed with his 500+ day counter and I'm stuck in the 30-40 day grinding treadmill (which, without PIED I'd be totally happy with). In a world where it's evolve or die, I'm a stubborn "...from my cold dead hands" type of fella. Or maybe I'm just an addict in denial that is really good at white-knuckling but hasn't learned a goddamn thing in a painful number of years.

    Maybe I'm Bloody Tampon Guy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2021
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  5. DoneAtLast

    DoneAtLast Well-Known Member

    That's a good point. If you hang out on places like this, it seems very high. When this site had more traffic, I think there was a new HOCD thread every week. There were a couple posts recently of guys having hookups with transwomen and, while it is arguably nothing in and of itself, clearly something they backslid into that they didn't want at all. The conventional wisdom in these communities for years is that it is being experienced by many, but because the diagnosis was so counter intuitive (that porn alters sexual function) it is never going to be properly measured. But, if you live your life at AA meetings, it is going to seem like everyone is an alcoholic.

    On the other hand, let's say it is only half of a percent of all men that end up with something super weird like this. That is still one in 400 people (assuming zero women ever have these problems), and something close to a million Americans. And then we're just identifying an extreme end of the spectrum, and there will be millions more that are moderately effed up rather than super effed up. For every one who is wearing a Tena pad and stealing used tampons out of the trash, there are likely a few dozen (more?) who have developed a genuine paraphilia and can only achieve orgasm by fantasizing about menstruation.

    I hear that "if people aren't hurting other people, does it even matter" argument and it makes sense, but the anecdotal evidence might work against us here. This guy was seriously creeping on this cashier. If there are enough of these guys, there will be some who do something stupid. Even if all they're doing is tracking them down on facebook and DMing them to ask for pictures of their tampons that is enough to cause harm. Remember that the cashier wasn't a Chaturbate model or someone with an OnlyFans account taking requests. She's a regular young adult grinding away at a job. There is public discussion of trans-women in women's bathrooms, and that seems like a perfect opportunity for a guy who gets off to make believe menstruation to try to impress his online friends with some sneaky pics.

    I'm also of the opinion that "not hurting other people" isn't enough if someone is clearly hurting themselves. If someone throws their sexual function out the window, what do I care? Maybe that just puts me too high on the empathy meter. Killing a guy's sexual function isn't just about his ability to find pleasure in orgasm, but it is also about his ability to have relationships, a family, and all sorts of other things by extension, like participation in various communities. Weird porn effectively turns guys into eunuchs, often without them realizing the trade off they're making. None of these guys are living their best life, to put it mildly. Yeah, maybe I shouldn't care, but I imagine a neighborhood of well adjusted family men to be a bit better than a bunch who stay inside furiously masturbating to weird shit. We're all fish in the same fish bowl.

    I guess I want people to be free of weird-ass kinks and not masturbate themselves raw in the same part of my brain that I want our obesity rates to go down. Sure, it doesn't affect me and likely makes me look better, but I can't help but just want better for the world. You see a guy get winded waddling out to his car and you just want to start talking nutrition and exercise. Of course, that's fat shaming these days. I guess I'm just built to force my beliefs on people all the time.
     
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  6. Doper

    Doper Well-Known Member

    Forgive me for saying, but does this not also apply to Catholic priests? A group that (unlike any other cohort that has been discussed so far) we can say with 100% surety, are actually harming other people? ... And also religion as a whole?

    There are two groups of people that make up the majority of NoTfap, as far as I can tell - PIED sufferers and religious people (NOT people suffering from sexual deviance).

    PIED sufferers fail to live their "best life" because their weiner's don't work and because they are tired of failure and embarrassment, and thus do not live the life they truly seek. If they are successful in ousting PMO from their lives for an extended period, they can make a glorious comeback at life. But as I've mentioned, my main problem with porn is it gives me ED, not that I have any moral issue with what is seen on the screen no matter how hardcore (financial exploitation aside). I have no problem with prostitutes and think they should be legal and widely available, and think this would create on NET far less suffering than is the current case in incredibly diverse ways. And so, this leaves me open to relapse because it's not like the Alan Carr situation where you realize there is LITERALLY NOTHING to like about smoking, or in this case porn. Because to me, there is a lot to like (except wacking it to a screen), but getting to the other side of PIED (though I've done it a few times now and blew it) takes a freaking long time and an iron will. Because PERFECTION is mandatory.

    BUT, the religious people seem to have their own set of issues from what I've seen so far. So they quit porn and lets say hypothetically don't have to deal with PIED. Well I guess they're good to go. BUT NO, they are torn. They just can't seem to deal with that "should I get a girlfriend and have sex or wait for marriage issue". Am I ever glad I don't have to deal with that nonsense. Is what I'm seeing real, or am I incorrect? ...And so it goes on for seemingly long periods of time, where they too, are ... not living their best life. And we should keep it real here, and say they might just agree with that sentiment.

    But now consider you are just some dude with a lot of sexually "deviant" thoughts in your head. Is that really keeping you from "living your best life"? ... In my experience it is a resounding NO. First, unless we are talking Hannibal Lecter-level sexual pathology, the average dude thinking dirty shit in his head is going to have no problem getting laid, having relationships, or being a well-adjusted individual. Statistically, who do you think has more sexual and relationship partners available to him - the reasonably well-adjusted pervert, or the guy that needs the girl to marry him to sleep with her? .... The obvious answer is the former gentleman, in our current culture. And as I said in my last post it's "EVOLVE OR DIE", or don't live your best life, in this case.

    We also can't use extremely non well adjusted outliers to to describe the average sexual "pervert". And how do we really define perverted anyway, there are a lot of perverted mentalities, sexual is only one example, and I don't think it's the one that can REALLY get one into trouble. IMO, sexual perversion can be defined as "to turn away from what is right, proper, or good". Other forms of perversion can be defined as "to interpret incorrectly" ... Is it possible that those who suffer from the latter, are "interpreting incorrectly" what is actually "perverted", and twisting in their mind what truly is "right, proper, and good"?

    The average girl that really likes a guy and is turned on by him is down with pretty much anything, in my view ... at least for a while, lol. And if a sexual "deviant" simply keeps up appearances, learns sufficient social skills and mannerisms, and is a relative joy to be around, his deviance will in no way harm him in his sexual conquests. What DOES harm people in this quest, is PIED and religious viewpoints. Things that stop people from venturing out the door to start the adventure. Maybe my view on the latter is perverted, but that's what seems to be happening.

    Exactly. How many in that suburban "neighborhood of well-adjusted family men", do you think are actually the weirdest fuckers going. For real man, it's all a mirage. All this stuff is 1950's-level Leave It To Beaver, fake, keeping the structural integrity of society propaganda, apple pie, nonsense.
    Everybody is a goddamn weirdo in their own right. Everybody gets their dopamine high from somewhere different. And one's definition of "my best life", is EXTREMELY diverse. Power, money, social status (by any means necessary), bloody tampon treasure hunts....Of all of those, I'd say the guy that does the latter will WITHOUT DOUBT, have the least negative effects on society, as fuckin weird as it is. All those other ones I've noted have been around for thousands of years and are completely normalized in our society, unfortunately. Maybe in a few hundred years, bloody tampon treasure hunts will be a school-age field trip mainstay.

    In closing, we don't really KNOW that Bloody Tampon Guy was "seriously creeping" on the cashier. This is a subjective opinion based on what evidence, I don't know, because I've long blocked Reddit. He may be the smoothest James Bond panty-drencher this side of the MI6 building. And that silver haired, dressed to kill, rich, "well-adjusted family man" may be one of a hundred of Epstein's buddies that fit that description.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2021
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  7. Bilbo Swaggins

    Bilbo Swaggins Well-Known Member

    Great post. But man, how can you write things like that and still keep a smile on your face? Those thoughts, I have them only once in a while, fortunately. I only visit those mental spaces for a few hours, and then I usually go back to an easier mindset, and tell myself things like, you’ll heal one day, you’re doing good, you’re making progress, etc. If I stayed close to the ideas you wrote about for too long, I would just want to disappear from the surface of the Earth.

    I always like reading your posts, they are full of clarity and sharpness of mind. But man, your view on things is ruthless, unrelenting. Reading you is fascinating, but it doesn’t feel good, man. No offense, of course, you know how I respect you. Believe me, if you were in the army, you’d be a good sergeant. :cool:
     
  8. Doper

    Doper Well-Known Member

    Bilbo - I'm not really sure what part of my post you're referring to. But yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say I feel very good. Jumping out of my skin is a good description, and so maybe this leaks out onto the page. Considering current trajectory, I think my fate is probably a massive heart attack at 45, and ruthless and unrelenting is definitely the way I feel I treat MYSELF, but whatever, you have a sense of humour and get by in the end (well, at least until the ticker explodes).

    Also, I'd just like to say that I like DoneatLast and the things he writes. There is a lot of redundancy on a forum like this and he brings some fresh ideas to the table. What I write definitely isn't meant as any kind of attack on individuals or their value systems. We both (admittedly) like arguing and "forcing our beliefs on people", and he is a worthy opponent. I could perhaps argue the other side of everything I wrote.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2021
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  9. DoneAtLast

    DoneAtLast Well-Known Member

    I'm late to the party, I may have to respond in phases - I keep finding myself distracted.

    The bit on the clergy is a whole other topic, and it depends on whether you're talking about celibacy in and of itself, the child sex abuse crisis, or the correlation/causation of the two. Skip down if you don't care.

    Celibacy originates in the monastic tradition, including but not limited to hermits. It is not unique to Christianity, and has origins predating it. While there have been different phases where different ideas of sexuality exist, it has never been for the sake of sex=bad. It is about sacrificing for the sake of another kind of life. Paul says (very rough translation) "some will marry, some can't marry, and some won't marry for the sake of the Kingdom". It is an offering. And, it is about detachment from the world. You see the same thing in Eastern religions where those in the monastic tradition don't marry, though I'm not an expert on those. Some modern priests describe it as being "married to the Church", so their vocation is mutually exclusive, and the Church is their family. It isn't uncommon to see younger priests wear left hand rings as a symbol of this. It started in the monastic tradition and priests actually could marry for the first millennium (give or take) and bishops were selected from the ranks of the monastics. Somewhere around the 11th century celibacy became the norm, in part because church property was getting tied up in these weird family dynasties. (That was for the Latin/Roman Rite, and not the entire Church - there are 21 other Rites as well as Orthodox traditions and many have married priests.) I mention all of this because while it renounces sex, it isn't repressing it.

    It might be the difference between fasting, and being unable to eat because you were eating something that gave you food poisoning and you keep throwing up. One is for a clear purpose (and whether that purpose is ultimately good or not can be open to discussion), the other is about fundamentally breaking your system.

    As for causation... I don't have numbers in front of me, but when the rates of abuse of the clergy are compared to other professions like teachers, medical care, and so on, the priests actually have a lower rate of abuse than many other professions. This isn't to excuse it or say it isn't a problem.... it definitely IS a problem, but it makes it harder to make a case directly to celibacy if it is being beaten out by professions that have no such practice. While I don't think there is a causation, I do think there are reasons for the correlation besides coincidence. Let's say it is the early 20th century, your brothers and sisters all got married and it is your turn to marry the pretty girl next door, but golly gosh she just isn't doing it for you and you have no idea why. You've never heard of being gay or any other thing (note: I'm not equating homosexuality to pedophilia... but both have occurred within the sex abuse crisis, and there is a middle part of that venn diagram), so instead of dealing with awkward wedding nights that you aren't looking forward to, you head to the seminary. You feel more comfortable and it seems to make grandma happy. The rest of the story writes itself. One personal theory I have is that a lot of this is passed on - a person abused is likely to become an abuser - and for a very long time there were things called "junior seminaries" that were essentially middle schools and high schools for young boys that might end up headed towards the priesthood. I mean, knowing what we know about boarding schools back in the day, it sure seems like this could be a ready breeding ground. Unfortunately the cover ups have been so thorough that we don't have much prior to the '60s and '70s, though bits and pieces pop up from time to time. (Then there are the whacked out traditionalists who think that the whole reason priests touch little boys is because they can't say the mass in latin, and they oughta be dope slapped.)

    The real stories are the cover ups and the extreme naivete in admitting young men to seminary and letting them get through who are clearly unwell, manipulative and frankly creepy.

    I haven't noticed that correlation. I have seen the guys who keep asking if they need to have sex ASAP in order to rewire, and I always interpret it as those hard porn cravings hitting them and thinking they need to get laid ASAP. Part of my reboot and a healthy sexuality is just feeling calmer about everything. Yes, I get quite aroused and so on, but it isn't an obsessive thought like I need a constant hit. I need to O at least once a day during my addiction. Now I really don't have to... at all, to be honest. I'll have to take your word for it that it might be more common among religious people. They might just be fixating on the whole idea of "needing a release", and if they have less life experience on it, it might be harder to make sense?

    Yeah, those are the definitions I use, and in more archaic use the word "perversion" didn't necessarily imply anything sexual. Shoving a banana in my ear would be a perversion of food. It isn't clear to me if you bring this up as an extension of your discussion on religious themes, but it isn't far off from a religious view. Sensible religious views (John Paul II, Humanae Vitate, etc.) define sex as a fundamentally good thing, and it only becomes bad when it goes off the rails. Exactly how far off the rails you can go and still be good is where the discussions really lie. Is a knob job "right, proper and good"? Is masturbating to a store clerk's bloody tampons "right, proper and good"?

    Yeah, I agree. I think BTG went down a rabbit hole that already existed because of some weird discomfort/curiosity/just being weirded out by menstruation. That would have been with him his whole life regardless. But, I would suggest that he wouldn't have ever gotten the dopamine hits from it unless he started feeding the beast. Who knows where it started for him, but he certainly has a habit of masturbating to the thought of it, so he's certainly created that.

    It seemed pretty clear to me that he was lingering and talking to her a while (he mentions intentionally getting his PIN wrong on the card reader to prolong the interaction) so he could look at her and think about her bloodying another tampon as they talked. He also wanted to visit her again. Now, there is the argument of "what she doesn't know won't hurt her", but I'm not sure I buy that. Statistically speaking eventually one of these menstruating cashiers will be hurt by it, it is just a matter of time. (It sort of reminds me of the episode of The Office where Creed interjects in a conversation about creepy people to say "The trick to being creepy is to think creepy thoughts. Observe:" and then he just stares off silently for a moment.)

    I suppose you're right. But, when they're obsessive thoughts, then that changes everything. Any kind of persistent obsessive thoughts can be a hindrance to a normal life, sexual or not. I suppose if someone's sexual obsessions are purely vanilla they can be quite damaging to their lives, as well. Combine the two, and you've got... well... BTG.

    (A thought experiment.... suppose a purely vanilla sexual proclivity becomes an obsession. Say, boobs. He obsesses over boobs. Can't stop thinking about them. Hobbies and other interests go away, it is just boobs running through his head all the time. How long before he's thinking about larger ones? Ones that are comically large? Ones that are Guinness Book of Records large? Ones that are strangely shaped? Ones that are fake? Ones that are budding on underage girls? Will he stay obsessed and be perfectly fine staring at any ol' rack he sees on the sidewalk? I don't know the answer to this. The key might be in the masturbation component.)

    Clearly we have different ideas on this. If I had to characterize Doper's ideas, I'd say that he feels getting your freak on at least sometimes is part of a healthy life. Let that freak flag fly high, baby. Just don't be stupid and don't have any sort of loser behavior. If this was a weight loss board, he'd probably see threads where people say sugar is the absolute enemy and you should never touch it and post "if you want a f&$kin Snickers bar have one for crying out loud, just don't cram your face full of the s($t, and by the way, eat a vegetable every now and then".

    For me, I might agree in terms of eating, but I'm less sure when it comes to porn and its derivatives. I'd be inclined to agree when it comes to food (have sweets as long as you're within calorie limits, aren't diabetic and aren't dealing with a sugar addiction), but porn seems to me more like putting diesel in a gas engine. There might be a safe amount, but why in God's name would you want to? I haven't seen much evidence on these boards of what a healthy dose looks like. There have been very rare instances where someone will say that they quit porn but kept masturbating but also were able to reap the benefits of quitting porn, but that has been a very hard thing to duplicate. Can someone who was hooked on BDSM porn have a nice game of Yahtzee with the neighbors and end it with whips and gimp masks as part of a healthy lifestyle? I'm not sure there is any going back.

    Maybe if weird ass kinks can be completely divorced from porn consumption, escalation through constant masturbation and its reward circuits and maybe a few other things there is a place it can fit, but isn't this sort of a unicorn? I think we'd need a good example of that just for the sake of science, and I can't think of ANYTHING that would work as a stand in.

    If I had to summarize all I've learned in this journey it is that sexual stimulation that is completely separated from actual human connection is a potentially toxic substance and most resembles drug use. That is the diesel in the gas tank. That's hitting your brain with the q-tip. This overlaps with moral teaching, but isn't necessarily a moral teaching in itself, though because it exists in the abstract it can seem like it is. Heck, if it being similar to religious thought bugs you, just tell yourself "a stopped clock is right twice a day".

    I'm sure someone out there is going to get mad at my "long ass post". Joke's on you, you read to the end!
     
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  10. Pete McVries

    Pete McVries Well-Known Member

    This is a very interesting discussion and I had great time reading. Threads like this are the things that I enjoy most on YBR, so thank you for the lively discussion!

    First of all, I wanted to comment on Doper's Tampon Guy vs. Epstein-type-of-guy comparision. While I totally agree that the latter is in fact more damaging to the individual or the society as a whole, I think, in regards to the thread topic, this is not the best of comparision. Simply because - and I must admit that I'm not too literate with the whole Epstein story or the ideas and conspiracies surrounding it so I might be wrong there - most likely it wasn't porn that made Epstein what he became but rather his power to do what he did, the abuse of his power and becoming addicted to the whole thing. If you take the Tampon Guy, you can clearly guess that porn, its abundance and immediacy, must have played a major role in his journey and still is a major ongoing contributing factor to his behaviour.

    Of course, we can always argue if Tampon Guy's behaviour is perverted, deviant, delinquent, or, on the contrary empowering. In the end, that is entirely dependent on your perspective and definition. When Doper wrote that he might be Bloody Tampon Guy, I had to laugh and think to myself, yes, I think most of us who ended up on one of these forums are some kind of Tampon Guy in our own right. To be honest, I sometimes think that being a young male having a head fueled with porn but also PIED prevented me from doing unneccessary damage to myself (and others potentially). Many porn addicts who don't have PIED engage in behaviour one would call risky, no? That dude is completely lost, in my opinion, he has explored parts of the rabbit hole unbeknownst to most mortals. And I say that from my own Tampon Guy perspective. Who knows if that fetish of his derived from unresolved childhood trauma or what not, that is not the question, but I think it is safe to say, that porn amplified his behaviour, functions as a catalyst and keeps him engaging in this behaviour.

    And of course, men or women who on the outside seem well-adjusted like priests, like teachers, like politicians, like golf pros can be totally fucked up in any possible way but there is no direct causal relationship between the two sides. The Tampon Guy, that is how understood what DoneAtLast wrote about in his OP, is an interchangeable example of one of the many facets of the addiction's rabbit hole explorers. It could as well be a seemingly well-adjusted father who loves his teen vids on the ol' hub while creeping on his daughter's college friends and jerks off to them on the side. The Dad from American Beauty with porn in the mix. What do you think someone like American Beauty Dad or Tampon Guy feels when post orgasmic clarity hits? How do you feel after relapsing to porn you've escalate to eventually? Fucking miserable. The opposite of how you feel when you had real sex with a partner you vibe with. And yet despite knowing this, us Tampon Guys keep going back down the rabbit hole under the stimulus of hunger for the next hit. A drive that is very distinct from a normal hunger for sex even if it's a very high one.

    The problem are the lies the porn industry keeps feeding and believers who keep reproducing this idea. Rule 34, find out what your sexuality REALLY is. Thank god for porn, man, my sexuality would have been in shackles my whole life otherwise... (/irony off). It is a tragedy. I know for a fact that the porn I escalated to is not what I originally liked and that porn exposed me to ideas that are not my own, ideas I would have never had, had I not watched it repeatedly. I remember developing the "taste" for it after being a porn user for five years already. So there is that. And after being clean for 2 years and a half, I still have it in my mind from time to time, so I think, it is a permanent rudiment and can't be erased. We've all crossed a line in a certain way, there is no scenario in which we can just look at the rabbit hole let alone forget about its existence. Or just casually go down to the first level and be done with it...

    What really pisses me off personally, is that there are many people who had to fight for their right to be sexually empowered and their place in society (take homosexuals for example or women who want to live out their sexuality freely without being shamed). And the porn industry hijacked this "fight" in order to promote their own interest. It strongly reminds me of how transsexuality is treated these days. Quite a few people who transform their gender are really unhappy afterwards because they found out that the cause for what they felt before was not their gender. But there is a whole industry now that promotes this under the flag of diversity and the fight against oppression. If you argue against it or allude to the problems and risks, you are always in danger of being an oppressor or enemy of diversity. In the picture of the porn rabbit explorers, you are a prude or enemy of sexual freedom and empowerment. It makes it very hard to discuss all this. So, again, I'm thankful for threads like these where ideas and perspectives can be exchanged and discussed respectfully without being derailed.
     
  11. hogus

    hogus Well-Known Member

    Bingo. Once the fundamental causation between high speed porn and sexual problems is made clear: the lack of connection to another human and even yourself, you can resolve any debate on the issue. This is what causes genre escalation, PIED, problems in relationships, everything.

    I think there's good arguments on both sides. All I have to say is about this

    I used to hold this view. They seem like 2 different issues but they are actually almost the same issue. They are both caused by empathetic disconnection to either the woman in front of you (the woman/situation doesn't feel "real" so no boner - this applies to PIED only and not other causes of ED) or the one on the screen (the women/situation on the screen isn't "real" so no guilt). There's only 1 degree of separation between these issues. Work on one and watch what happens to the other..
     
    DoneAtLast likes this.
  12. Deleted User

    Deleted User Guest



    @DoneAtLast I really liked these reflections. Interesting. But I have a question regarding this paragraph which I quote here:

    My question to you is how do you live your love life or sexual life today after such a long time recovered? Doy you have girfriend ? Do you wish married in the future ? How do you feel about ? Excuse me this questions.


    Without the intention of disturbing with this questions but it gives me the impression that you are not having a sexual life anyway.

    I hope you are not going to feel uncomfortable with what I ask you.

    Have you had a girlfriend or relationships in all this time?

    How has your life been in that regard?

    Thank you for answering and asking and excuse me these very direct questions. :eek: Only that aspect of your life really catches my attention.

    You can to answer me in private friend. It seems that is more safe.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2021
  13. catchingup

    catchingup Active Member

    I have used porn regularly for 17 years and I have no desire to do something like this. I can't even wrap my head around it.
     
  14. DoneAtLast

    DoneAtLast Well-Known Member

    No problem, fair questions. I won't give extraordinary detail and keep some privacy, but I don't mind talking about it.

    I am single, but not for any reasons relating to sexual performance or porn use. Covid killing our social lives is one reason, difficulty meeting single people in my age range is another (I'm 38) as well as meeting other criteria I might have in dating. I'm not a hook-up app kinda guy, so there aren't going to be any short term flings or anything for me. I have strong opinions on how the dating world isn't working for everyone's benefit and is leaving many people deeply unhappy, but it would be quite a tangent to go down that road. I do think porn is part of it - I actually recently reached out to a young woman on a dating site that said "don't contact me if you watch porn" to ask her about it. She says that she and her friends can spot the regular porn users a mile away based on how they act and stare them down. I don't know if her accuracy is as high as she thinks it is, but something to think about.

    All that said, my sexual function is just fine. Once in a blue moon I get wet dreams, but typically not. I can tell by the quality of erections/size of my little buddy and so forth that it is a night and day difference from when I was hooked on porn. I had some PIED symptoms when I was using porn - I could be wrapped around a woman kissing and still be limp, now I have the normal responses I remember from my teens. I also had a weird thing when I was trying to quit porn where I'd get severe blue balls style pain because my body thought it was going to ejaculate at the mere sight of anything arousing, online or otherwise, because my modus operandi was to go rub it out every time. I don't get that anymore. The biggest remnant is that the fetish/preferences I had during porn occasionally bubble up to the surface.

    It is admittedly a very extreme example. My intent on posting it wasn't to say this is what we'll all turn into, but simply that sometimes the most extreme cases are the most illustrative. I know I had weird stuff I was into that wouldn't have ever manifested itself without porn. Maybe something weird in the back of my head that I never would think all that hard about, but never anything close to an obsession or porn fetish.
     
  15. Deleted User

    Deleted User Guest

    DoneAtLast likes this.

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