Taking back my d̶i̶c̶k̶ - as it turns out, my entire life.

Discussion in 'Ages 20-24' started by hogus, Oct 22, 2012.

  1. hogus

    hogus Well-Known Member

    I don't call it a relapse since it was intentional. I wanted to see how I would respond.

    But yes, only MO. I've stopped counting P because there's no point.
     
  2. Universal

    Universal Guest

    Hey man how you been? Any luck with women?
     
  3. hogus

    hogus Well-Known Member

    Fine I guess. Haven't met any.
     
  4. hogus

    hogus Well-Known Member

    So through my own knowledge/research and my therapist (oh yeah... I have a therapist now) I've come to understand that I have complex PTSD.

    Guys if you are in ANY doubt AT ALL that there might be a deeper issue going on then see a therapist. I've always been a proponent of making sure PA is your primary issue before getting rid of it but the whole point of some of these things is that they get repressed. In the case of C-PTSD or PTSD you could be living a completely normal life without chronic major depression or GAD and then bam, something (or lots of things at once as it was for me!) pops up and you find yourself staring down a knife.

    So I'm not fine I guess, but I understand now. And that is extremely valuable.

    Here are some perspectives I pulled from Jeff Foster (you can google him). The first is that addiction is a turn down the wrong path on the search for unconditional love. That really resonated with me. This applies not just at the addiction end of the scale and not just to those with mental health issues (who are predisposed towards that path more), but using drugs, junk food even in moderate amounts in otherwise healthy people. There's a constant search for something but in the wrong place, or in the only place available at the time.

    As for the second I didn't really like the vague way he put it but what I took from it is that depression is always a symptom. Whether it's in your genes, trauma, bad habits or whatever it's always a symptom. DSM might call it a primary disease, but once you put genetics in with bad habits etc as causes, I consider it more like a primary symptom. It's a symptom that the brain does to itself when it knows that the life it's living is somehow incompatible with it. Or as Jeff put it, the story that you're living is literally depressing you. We all know this to some extent but here's the take away: there's an immutable part of you that will never change in the face of any force that tries to. That part is telling you to motherfucking LIVE but our logical minds don't see a way to change (see learned helplessness, I'm not just making this shit up). The change we make here has to come emotionally, not logically, however hard that might be. Our logical minds don't get sufficiently driven to change because pure logic isn't a powerful motivator for us. Not even when we go a year without PMO and our prefrontal cortices explode to the size of balloons.

    Now, how does this relate back here. It's indisputable that the success rate is higher if you have an OH, and I'm not just talking about rewiring which is obvious, but abstinence as well. Through the reboot guys with OH realize they have what they were always looking for in porn. And I don't just mean something that gets them off ::)

    Hopefully that makes sense. Maybe I've done too much LSD... or not enough as it were.

    Also I MO'd again. And it was great, no fantasy came up, solid erection even standing etc. I'm going to tentatively start MOing once a month, over the next year slowly increasing it to once a week. The way I see it, my erections with girls will do whatever they want until I start rewiring anyway so as long as my MO quality stays up and I don't go to porn, I'm not going backwards.
     
  5. Daimon

    Daimon Member

    Damn, I loved this post right here, particularly this: "That part is telling you to motherfucking LIVE but our logical minds don't see a way to change (see learned helplessness, I'm not just making this shit up). The change we make here has to come emotionally, not logically, however hard that might be. Our logical minds don't get sufficiently driven to change because pure logic isn't a powerful motivator for us. Not even when we go a year without PMO and our prefrontal cortices explode to the size of balloons."

    It greatly resonated with me.
     
  6. hogus

    hogus Well-Known Member

    So I feel like my libido and potentially my erections from the reboot are back, but my psychiatric problems are keeping them down. Subtle difference but after rebooting this long I guess you get so used to porn-suppressed libido that you know when it's changed.

    Well that's something...

    I've got some thoughts here, I start therapy again next week. You don't have to read them, I just want to get it all more coherent and I don't have anyone to talk to, or know anyone who would understand it anyway.

    So I really like this girl but we're already friends. Here's hoping she doesn't find this...
    She gave me the "oh friendship blah blah" etc speech when I brought up the idea of us going out but the thing is I'm 100% sure I'm NOT friend zoned. I haven't done anything to be friend zoned. We flirt all the fucking time, we're very touchy, she likes my body etc. So what could it be?
    There's this other guy who is madly in love with her, everyone knows. She (unintentionally, I'll get to that) leads him on. While they're not as charged as we were sexually (touching etc) they definitely do relationship-type stuff even if it's more on the emotional side of things. She's said explicitly that she feels nothing like that towards him, and of course pretty much said that about me.
    So she leads guys on. Objective view or my cognitive bias? Time to get into the nitty gritty.
    When she's with him, or me she IS 100% feeling those kinds of emotions. She is into it, whatever. The issue here is that she forgets too quickly. Her brain removes the emotional association from the memories of doing whatever with us, too easily. More nitty gritty.

    People with PTSD have lower levels of a neurotransmitter called anandanide. This is the brain's natural cannabinoid (we don't have CB receptors just for pot!). You know how people say "oh I know someone who does a lot of pot, he's a fucking moron and forgets everything" - well there's some truth. Different chemicals cause different responses at the same receptor but it seems action at CB1 causes the forgetting of memories.
    Part of the initial stages of forgetting (I mean forgetting, NOT suppressing. big difference) a memory is removing the association to an emotional response. Anandanide levels are a big factor in PTSD (there are studies, you can google it). I may have this slightly wrong but the general idea is lower anandanide -> less forgetting -> the trauma sticks around in the amygdala instead of being processed into the hippocampus. If it's in the amygdala it's a "here and now" emotion rather than being archived, so to speak. This applies to more than just trauma, it applies to EVERY emotional event we ever experience. It's just that trauma is the most clinically significant.
    So we have a plausible mechanism.

    I'm super sensitive to pot. Like really hypersensitive. A single 200mcg joint shuts up the voices and memories for a few hours. Sometimes it just knocks me straight out. We had brownies once, with other people. She seemed to have a higher tolerance than everyone else and far higher than me but she does pot once in a blue moon and I do ~200mcg twice a week. We all had the same amount, I was stoned off my face, she had a small response and the three others were moderately stoned.
    She came out of a LTR a while ago. While she was obviously distressed she got over it VERY quickly, in a week you couldn't even tell that anything had happened to her.
    We have evidence.

    It feels like she uses us two as an emotional crutch. There would be an event that triggers an emotional response (touching, whatever) which helps her with the emotional hole she has after the breakup. Then her brain removes the association and she's back at square 1 but we end up in a different place to her. Especially me because of the PTSD and there have even been hints of this guy having some residual traumatic stress.
    And we have circumstance. Shame really, lovely girl otherwise..

    I should do a study on this.
    Imagine if I didn't know any basic pharmacology; I'd still be thinking it's my fault, there's something wrong with me etc... who said overthinking never got anyone anywhere?
     
  7. hogus

    hogus Well-Known Member

    Holy fucking shit it's not my fault.

    Done now.
     
  8. Universal

    Universal Guest

    I'm not going to lie, I'm really having a hard time keeping up with that last post because, well I'm not that intelligent

    However

    Your last comment makes me think you reached a positive and "now I can rest" conclusion. So congrats man! Happy for you
     
  9. hogus

    hogus Well-Known Member

    It's not an intelligence thing, I just spend far too much time reading about neuropharmacology and making up crap. And one thing goes away and but other things come... sigh.

    One bit of good news though.
    Went home with a girl on Friday! I couldn't get it up well enough for sex but there was definitely some decent response at times during foreplay. I'm not sure how much of it was down to PIED since it was about 6 hours past my usual bedtime, I stank, she stank etc. Somehow she got really into it and I was pretty into it, just a varying response down there (sin wave jokes were made in the morning...) So I'm going back onto no MO, hopefully if the largest factor was PIED then that will sort it.
     
  10. Universal

    Universal Guest

    Awesome news man! Had you been out drinking or what?

    loled at sin wave jokes, do you have intentions to follow up with this girl?
     
  11. gameover

    gameover Age: 26

    You going to meet up with her again?
     
  12. hogus

    hogus Well-Known Member

    Tried to follow up but she's ignoring me. Shame...
     
  13. Universal

    Universal Guest

    Sucks man, what environment were you guys in before going back? Do you have regular contact with random women?

    Curious, what's the longest and most severe period of brain fog you've ever gone through? Could you describe it for me?
     
  14. hogus

    hogus Well-Known Member

    A club, but an extremely casual club. No I don't.

    Brain fog - when I first tried to quit porn but kept MO relapsing. It's hard to explain without using the cloud concept; but it's like an extreme numbness to anything that needs concentration.
     
  15. hogus

    hogus Well-Known Member

    Damn relapsed to MO. I think I got this now.

    No more updates unless I relapse, have sex or make significant breakthroughs with my CPTSD which is a fucking bitch. Really does get worse before it gets better...
     
  16. dckent

    dckent Guest

    Saved my life dude, I mean it, ur a hero. Thank you!
     
  17. hogus

    hogus Well-Known Member

    I have a friend on another forum who did something either really stupid or really clever that he'd been planning for a few weeks. He PMO'd for half a minute (lol) and watched porn for half an hour. Then he closed everything down and did nothing for 5 mins, meditated even. Then he took 60mg ketamine divided up over half an hour and 80mg slow release propranolol, and when he went through the next day he found that the usual flashes were broken or faded - hard to describe.

    The next day he had NO withdrawals. No brain fog, no cravings, nothing. It was just a normal day as if he hadn't PMO'd the night before except for the flashes as above.

    This is day 0 and he is optimistic. I will be updating daily for the next few months with his state. Stay tuned... proper write up with sources and wild assumptions he made coming in a few months if it sticks around. He doesn't recommend anyone else try this just yet considering how bleeding edge the current research is. A ket + PMO addiction is so much worse than just a PMO addiction.
     
  18. hogus

    hogus Well-Known Member

    Day 1: It's like nothing happened
    Day 2: Higher libido, almost feels like a chaser that wants to be a chaser but isn't all there, so it just feels like higher libido
    Day 3: Same as day 2
     
  19. hogus

    hogus Well-Known Member

    Day 4: Nothing special to report
    Day 5: Initial write-up below. He's going to do the next session today, and do it weekly. However he's going to do some things differently:

    - No PMO, just P. Sticking MO in there is overkill. The full drug cocktail for him was PMO but just P should be more than enough to bring up those memories. Huge assumption: Watching P without M or O may render the memory more labile due to a new context. Good assumption: the full PMO is overkill and may dampen the effects by bringing up a stronger chaser, flashes etc

    - Spread the study drug over a longer period of time. The reconsolidation window is shown to be around 8 hours so my friend is planning on taking the same amount in total (60-70mg) but over a longer period of time, hopefully extending the time under from 3 to 5 hours. He's hoping that length is a larger factor than intensity. He feels psychologically, the initial does does need to be high-ish to fully disassociate from the P. 40mg at 5 mins and then 10mg every hour from 1 hour until 70mg is his plan.

    - No watching P while on the study drug. He noticed that although while on it and browsing through P for a couple of minutes he didn't care or have any reaction at all, he now has flashes back to the main screen at the time. Strangely, even now getting these flashes, incites no cravings or emotion. Fair assumption: P while on the study drug removes the emotional trace effectively but may create a new memory of this "harmless" P (or update the original memory trace). But due to the sheer complexity of CT-UT pairings in P, it ends up being chaser at some point if it isn't shut out. It's still much easier than the flashes on a day to day basis, but the goal is to get rid of flashes and not just make them easier.

    - Things that he didn't watch on day 0 or aren't related conceptually somehow (e.g. ex-favourite videos, genres) have been coming up stronger. He tried to get through as much as possible on day 0 and may have neglected more particularly problematic cues. Fair assumption: disrupting specific problem flashes first, and then P more generally has the strongest outcome

    Other things he is thinking about:
    - Adding different classes of drugs. The following are candidates:
    NMDA blockers - strong evidence base but already have one
    Lipophilic beta blockers - good evidence, have one. He is using metoprolol now as that what his doctor has put him on (history of asthma), hopefully it won't matter
    Melatonin - no evidence base, shown to help with fear memories but no testing done on drug memories
    Protein synthesis blockers - good evidence base, availability (and ? interactions) an issue though
    Acetylcholine agonists - preliminary evidence base. Looks promising and he has one on hand but not today, he's changing enough
    - Effects on PIED. No idea.
    - Effects on pre-existing extinction. No idea but still worth the risk since reconsolidation is more permanent. Seems alright so far though although he has noticed that the reduced flashes has left him more relaxed and less on guard, so when they do come he is slightly less prepared than before.
     
  20. hogus

    hogus Well-Known Member

    Day 5.1: Next one done. Few points:
    P got much less of a response this time. He even felt the whole thing was unnecessary at the beginning; it took him a good few mins of browsing through P before it triggered him, stress response etc.
    He found the trip much less comfortable at a lower starting dose of 30mg and spreading the rest out longer. Anyone who has done K can imagine that 30mg wouldn't do shit against a PMO relapse after a long streak, however 6 hours later he still feels like the PMO never happened, just as much as on day 0.
    Weekly is too much - it's an exhausting trip. He has no doubt about the safety at this dose but still doesn't like the idea drinking a gallon of water and going to the toilet every 20mins for 5 hours a week. 2-4 weekly is the new plan.
    Not entirely sure of the safety of combining a beta blocker with ketamine - his heart rate dropped to 40 at points and he had to keep in mind proper breathing technique, however lightheadedness was minimal and he could go up and down the stairs for water easily. Seems OK for him but I wouldn't want to try it, or suggest anyone else does without some safety measures in place.

    Next one on day 19. Is anyone even reading this or is everyone holding their breath to see if I become a junkie? :-X
     

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