Success almost two years in. PIED is undoubtedly a thing.

Discussion in 'Success Stories' started by Altruism247, Mar 9, 2015.

  1. dustyduster

    dustyduster New Member

    Hope you don't mind me adding this post to the large amount of PMs I sent you (posting this in public since it may be of use to severe porn addicts going through these kinds of symptoms), just a few quick questions about how your recovery went.

    1. When orgasming from masturbation, did it feel like the orgasm set you all the way back to the start of recovery, or did it feel more like it put you back a few weeks or something? (This happened to me at the end of August, I lost this increased motivation and focus which I had for 4 days prior, but I didn't feel like everything I gained was lost, if that makes any sense, the hangover only lasted for 18 hours and hell, my energy levels were through the roof in the days after! Other symptoms fluctuated of course.)

    2. Did wet dreams give you a noticeable set back? (They don't for me.)

    3. While you were recovering over the course of the last two years, your mood shifts and improvements in symptoms, did they improve all at the same time, or at times did certain symptoms improve while other ones didn't? This is more specifically during the brief highs, not the gradual improvement. (It seems to be the case for me, I only PMOed for four years so my recovery time may be a little shorter.)

    4. In regards to one of your earlier posts from 2013, you mentioned "ADHD" symptoms as one of the results of an orgasm. How did this feel exactly? You couldn't absorb information well or just couldn't pay attention to something for long? (I have symptoms like this at the moment, they were really bad but now they seem to be improving quite a bit, fluctuate of course but it's a good sign. Often times it's the kind of ADD where you just skim everything you read.)

    5. Not really a question about recovery, but rather before you found YBOP. What do you believe causes some of the "withdrawal" symptoms to pop up before you actually start abstaining from porn intentionally. And why doesn't looking at porn (when you got these symptoms I mean) erase all of the withdrawal symptoms? (I experienced the same thing. I asked on the forum a while ago about this but they didn't really give me a straight answer as they were focusing on other things I was kinda dumb.) Could this be your so used to porn that looking at porn at that point is like a crack addict needing to snort a 5CM line of Cocaine but instead only being given a 1CM line? That's my way of describing this. (And yes, if I came across something that really stimulated me, it would make me feel slightly better, but not by much as it wasn't strong enough.)

    In relation to the last question. Porn did make my misery a little bit more bearable, but in turn it made me into an unfocused, numbed out, kinda stoner like (no offence, know not everyone who smokes pot is like that) while actively engaging in PMO. This is how I felt right before my current streak. That fades away after I stop, but makes me a lot more anxious and uncertain if it's PMO causing my symptoms or not (but, again, that seems to be a very common fear on this thread).

    Hope you are doing well with your life and all that good stuff, your story is very helpful to all of us!
  2. Altruism247

    Altruism247 New Member

    Sorry for the lack of replies everyone, I think my absence can be attributed to 1) how busy I've been and 2) how much better I've been feeling and thus less desire to come here obsessively searching for answers that usually aren't there.

    Before trying to answer some specific questions, let me say that my confidence, productivity, ease in social situations and contentment continue to improve, and I'm now at 27.5 months since my last PMO session. My sexual performance and enjoyment continue improving as well. Interestingly, the improvements seem to be accelerating since my gf and I stopped using rubbers. Possible coincidence, but would sort of make sense as the rewiring might be more intense/effective due to increased feeling. Is my brain shit 100% related to porn? Probably not, as I've been a shy, differently wired person since day one, but this gradual up and down improvement has been too strangely/perfectly aligned to be a placebo.

    Almost 2.5 years into this thing, the best guess I have is that I've had a mild form of OCD/anxiety my entire life (came out of the womb with low dopamine, perhaps) and that porn was an insanely addictive drug for me due to feeling my brain full of dopamine for the first time. I unknowingly self-medicated from age 11 to 25, with the effects more acute and consequential for me (and many of you, probably) than for the average Joe. I reached a point where porn no longer gave me that same rush it once did, yet I continued doing it, disappointing my brain into a place of chronically low dopamine on and off for most of my life. Once I quit, the usual withdrawal symptoms (from 14 years, starting at age 11, of an almost daily dopamine shot that's been compared to cocaine according to latest research) coupled with my probably naturally low levels of dopamine put me into hell. As I've rebooted/rewired, I've experienced the up and down symptoms identical to those described for Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome for cocaine or alcohol. Just like they say, the symptoms have lessened in duration, intensity and frequency the further I've moved away from porn use. My sexual performance, confidence, desire and enjoyment have steadily improved as well. I always emphasize how slow this process has been, too, just so guys who might be in my position understand what they're up against.

    Now the questions:

    1. I didn't feel like orgasms set me back all the way; but I was in such an extreme mental hell for the first 1.5 years of my reboot that it was hard to differentiate, I guess. All I know is there seemed to be an *even shittier than usual* feeling that crept into my being any time I'd orgasm. Many times for days after.

    2. This is a weird one for me...I never had wet dreams. Ever. Even during 4-5 week periods of total abstaining. No explanation why.

    3. Good question. The symptoms all seemed to improve or fluctuate negatively at the same time. For example, feelings of confidence would coincide with greater and more natural feelings of arousal near real women. Also, with better ability to concentrate and socialize. It was all good or all bad. When I felt like such shit that I could hardly walk into a Walgreen's and up to the cashier without extreme anxiety, I would also be unlikely to perform with my girlfriend when we got back to her place. Etc etc.

    4. Yea, ADHD is maybe just something I'd include amongst the cluster of shit that I "have" when my brain is on the lower performance end that day. I have a very hard time describing what my "bad days" feel like, or what to call it. This is something psychiatrists struggle with; figuring out whether their patient has an anxiety disorder with co-morbid depression, or if they have ADHD with anxiety/depression happening as a result, or what. I was treated for all three at different times of my adolescence. Now I use cannabis to self-medicate with varying levels of success, but I will say that I have the ability to feel the benefits of cannabis better now as I move forward in the process of porn withdrawal. I'd categorize it with my ability to listen to music, enjoy a movie, focus on a person I'm conversing with, etc...just seems to be greater dopamine function. Low dopamine could manifest as anxiety, ADHD, depression, anhedonia, or a big clusterfuck of them combined, which is I think what's been happening with me for most of my life. Again, most importantly, all of these symptoms have (very slowly) been lessening their grip since I last PMO'd.

    5. Another great question. I may sound like an idiot trying to discuss this since I don't know all mechanisms of the neuroscience, but yes, it's a very interesting situation for those of us who reached that point of total inability to feel arousal. I'm not kidding when I say urges to relapse to porn haven't even been much of a problem in these 27 months. The desire was absent before I even quit. It's like our brains became "fried", or the closest way I could describe it scientifically would be we blew out our dopamine receptors to a dangerously low level. Thus, when we tried to give ourselves a dose of dopamine via porn, our brain wouldn't even accept it, and if we managed to achieve orgasm, it blew out the receptors even worse. The fact that I've barely been able to enjoy or obtain a buzz from alcohol during this process aligns with this notion. With the receptors not there, any kind of joy response initiated via neurotransmitters becomes too much for the control center to handle. Not sure if that makes sense whatsoever but that's how my limited mind sees it.

    But yea, anyways, hope that helps. Best of luck everyone and keep at it.
  3. Clarkmr

    Clarkmr Member

    Thanks so much for sharing dude! So, from a purely cognitive standpoint (PIED aside), do you believe the sex was GOOD for your recovery? Bad? Inconsequential? I'm in a relationship now, and after 120-130 days clean, sex seems to throw me off in the same way a porn relapse used to. I really resonate with much of your story, so I would love to hear back from you :)

    Thanks dude

  4. dustyduster

    dustyduster New Member

    Thanks for the reply Altruism, it was quite useful. I guess my case wasn't quite as deep as yours, but pretty damn close as you said you haven't had many issues avoiding porn for the last few years. But I do get urges every so often, yet only now my brain can say "NO!" to them. Perhaps that's my frontal lobes working like they should?

    Currently I am sorting out any possible underlying issues that may slow down the recovery of my brain (I know for certain that many of the really horrid symptoms are PMO withdrawal, as they only started in recent months when I really tried to cut into my porn use and my symptoms fluctuated when I cut porn out entirely) and planning on doing a strict meditation routine in a few weeks once I am ready.

    IF you don't mind, I have 3 more questions to ask when you have some time to come here. And I must apologize if I seem very one sided, it's just I am mainly asking these questions if they could help my recovery in some way or another.

    1. During your long recovery, did you ever get these very brief moments (like, maybe a few seconds, a minute or so) where you felt like your symptoms improved by a shit ton (like, for a brief moment you felt your ADHD go away completely, anhedonia goes etc?) and then disappear? This has happened to me a few times, the way I look at it is if it's like my brain is giving me a small taste of an improvement (this started after cutting out Porn, this even occurred a day or two after I orgasmed to porn fantasy, which implies that an orgasm isn't quite as bad for me as it is for others?) that is to come a few weeks/months down the line? Last time this happened earlier this month, I felt the empty head feeling go away for a few minutes. Haven't felt that good in my mind in ages. Same with the derealization, which may be connected.

    2. This one may be a little demanding, a rough estimate of how much you recovered over the span of a few months will be very useful. Like, by what percentage you improved in the span of 3 months? (e.g. 3 Months: 5% - 20% and 6 months: 15% - 40%)

    3. This one isn't really as important as the others, it's just I want to know your opinion on this. On the Subreddit NoFap, many of the members there have a very...peculiar attitude towards all forms of artificial dopamine stimulation. Now, not saying that living an understimulating life (like doing meditation or spending time in nature) is bad or stupid, but they tend to guilt trip people who still enjoy listening to music and playing video games (even if they aren't addicted). They use the whole "NoFap isn't about porn addiction (bullshit), it's about becoming a better man". IF it isn't about porn addiction, than why the fuck do almost all the people on that board complain about PIED and those other mental health problems that porn seems to induce? Things that I don't recall music or video games (unless they are REALLY taken to the extreme, but not PIED) inducing.

    This insults me, as one of the many reasons I am going through with this is because I want to enjoy music, video games, reading, writing and talking to friends the way I used to prior to starting this active PMO lifestyle 4 years ago. Seeing people tell others that they should just give up their hobbies (this doesn't apply to those who chose to give it up, as that happens) just sickens me, and only adds stress to my already terrible mental state. These people don't believe in free will.

    Just a quick update: My emotional responsiveness has shown signs of improving, and my feelings of "want" (urge to want to do something basically) are coming back (the latter occurred during the initial superpower type state, but that was weaker at the start of my current streak than before earlier this year, probably a result of burning out my dopamine receptors?). And believe it or not, I have had a few little moments where I felt my libido improve without any porn fantasy occurring. Like you say, this is up and down, so it's not constant yet...but it will be, soon. 70 days in and things are looking pretty good. The other fact is I am trying to sort out my other underlying health issues (going to get checked for hormone and thyroid problems just to be safe, and treating Candida overgrowth, which may have resulted in my PMO symptoms and addiction getting so bad in the first place) while I deal with this should also help speed up my recovery. At least I am getting these things sorted out while I am 19 rather than in my 20s...just sucks its so unpleasant to go through.

    Oh, here is what my NoPMO routine is: Currently lack a girlfriend to have sexual contact with (this will be corrected soon I hope...), so my routine is No Porn (of course, not an option anymore basically), minimal masturbation (been trying to rewire to touch/realistic fantasy with mixed results, still struggling to really get it up without porn fantasy) and virtually no orgasms. The reason I am avoiding orgasm is because I want to wait until I have sorted any possible underlying health problem out before I start experimenting with it again. The post-orgasm hangover...while not all that debilitating (only lasts 3 quarters of a day, and doesn't seem to set me all the way back to the start, implying it's not a huge issue for me), does feel unpleasant and probably detrimental to my recovery, which I don't want. Wet Dreams don't seem to influence this, which is interesting...

    Hope you are continuing to do well and can't wait to hear back from you!
  5. Altruism247

    Altruism247 New Member

    1. YES!!! Even in my darkest days, I'd sometimes have a day where everything simply felt more right and at ease. These days were also instrumental in helping me realize what was happening and trusting that what I was experiencing was truly chemical in nature. That's all there is to it. It would sometimes take a little bit to realize it was happening, too. Example would be going out to brunch with friends, I'd be mid-breakfast and realize, wait, I have no anxiety of people watching me eat...I was able to confidently tell the server my order...I've been carrying on casual conversations without the background voice saying "this is awkward..THIS IS AWKWARD.." over and over in my head. These may sound like ridiculous, pussy concerns and perhaps they are, but that's where I was at for a while. And when these symptoms suddenly went away for a day or even a few hours, it was like you describe it, a small taste of improvement. Or even more accurately, a small taste of normalcy. My old, real self.

    2. Man, it's tough to accurately lay this out but like I've said countless times, it's been very slow. Like, if I tried to assign percentages to each month milestone, I'd be just pulling them out of my ass. The truth is that I was barely functional from January 2013 to June of 2014. In that, I mean I would hardly ever have good days where I would be at ease in public or even by myself. A constant, nagging state of anxiety and dissatisfaction is the only way to describe it. So I guess if we're throwing numbers around, it wasn't until about 14 months in that I could feel improvements *at all*. And now in the 14 or so months since summer '14, I've seen those improvements accelerate. A reminder: 14 months ago is also when consistent rewiring began with my girlfriend.

    3. I think lots of people get carried away for sure, and it's crazy to try and stop all dopamine-triggering activities. However, if this science all checks out and we really are trying to heal our brains from overstimulation, the logical attack against it would be to slow down stimulation in any way we can. This is probably why I've experienced benefits from sensory deprivation tank therapy, time in nature, and 24-hour fasts. But I don't think there's ever anything wrong with listening to music. Wiring our brains to become more emotionally responsive to music can't ever be a bad thing, in my opinion.
  6. dustyduster

    dustyduster New Member

    You just gave me a good lead in to my very last question. (If it seems like I am a bit needy, it's because I want to get out of this dark place in my life sooner rather than later. I have shown signs of recovery already, but anything to help speed it up/make it more bearable is very useful).

    I need to try those things you did, sensory deprivation and of course meditation. I read up about how you did Nada Yoga and all that, which I will try but that will have to wait until I have gotten this candida overgrowth under control (it can seriously screw a person up, luckily I caught it before it did really nasty damage, not that it didn't do any damage already (and perhaps led to some of my problems as a result of PMO today, but it doesn't matter as I won't go back to it). Already seen improvements from treating it!) as treating it is quite stressful and demanding. But once it's under control I am going to go full steam ahead with what you did.

    On Sensory Deprivation, how long did you do it for and how well do you think it worked for you? On Meditation, would meditation with an audiobook playing in the background (on fairly low volume) help or would it cancel out the effectiveness of the meditation session (could help with mindfulness)? And how would you recommend doing 24 hour fasts?

    I don't really have anything else to ask...for now at least. It's best I spend less time online as I have this horrible habit of reading scary stories relating to these symptoms (the POIS guys in particular, did you ever have any experience with them out of curiosity?) despite knowing they aren't really that bad (these symptoms got worse when I started trying to cut porn out, so it's not an orgasm issue, more of a porn issue) and that I wasn't quite as deep as some people ended up being, at least in duration. But regardless, I get horrible anxiety which makes my problem worse, which is why reading your experience calms me down so much.

    I ramble too much, my goal right now is to just focus on understimulation for a while, find some friends in real life, and get my health back to normal since that will obviously speed recovery up in some way. Hopefully, some day down the line I can function normally again and put all this bullshit behind me.

    EDIT: And err...I need to find a girlfriend somehow. If our brains are somewhat similar (albeit with different factors that led to this situation?) then I MUST find some way to rewire with a real woman, since I have had very little contact with real females around my age in such a long time. My libido is showing signs of recovery (like those little blips I mentioned) so perhaps it's necessary some point down the line. Do you have any advice on how to get in contact with females?
  7. Giuseppe Garibaldi

    Giuseppe Garibaldi [url=

    It's not ridiculos ,it's happened to me too.I could barely go to the market and I was like a steamer. The good days are awesome,but when the finish I feel like I'm can't have a normal life (it's like a down after a joy).Thank you for sharing your story,I'm actually in a not happy period.

    I thought too to try the sensorial deprivation (in my city there is a center with a chamber).How many time you did it?Can you explain more your experience?

    I'm happy for you,for real.And thank you very much for your time.
  8. dustyduster

    dustyduster New Member

    Can't believe I am posting on this thread again mentioned supplements and diets...

    This is quite important, I didn't realise at the time but as my recovery seems to be accelerating slightly while treating candida (at the same time I feel slightly worse, it's a taxing process treating an invasive yeast), this may be incredibly important, even if it didn't seem all that connected to your recovery (you did say it sped up after consistent rewiring and meditation started).

    You can ignore my previous post, since this is far more important. IF you can remember, what supplements and diets did you go on? This is important as you never know...maybe some of those diets and supplements (aside from uridine/fish oil) you took sped your recovery up? And even more important, ever get checked out for underlying health conditions? (Not saying it was caused by something else, it's just that it's important since it may help other people going through the same thing)

    And unrelated but minor, you mentioned a long while back something to do with "penile sensations". I am going through this thing (which started when I began trying to cut from PMO last September) where my penis will sort of "twitch", it's weird as I never experienced this before in my life until recently. Is this the kind of thing you experienced at that point in your recovery? (this was around late 2013)

    EDIT: Eventually I suppose I should do my own thread about these symptoms. Right now they are fluctuating quite a lot, haven't had any extreme highs in a while (and wet dreams don't appear to affect how my symptoms fluctuate, and the intentional orgasm I had at the end of August didn't cancel all that I gained) but the baseline appears to be getting better. Could be that I am treating my Candida, or that I only started PMOing (was looking at porn since I was 10, but not addicted until 14 or so) shortly after I turned 15. Perhaps both are accelerating my recovery in some way. Only time will tell...I was able to get a slight erection while masturbating to non-fetish fantasy today (I rarely masturbated to non-fetish porn stuff) but not to orgasm. Even better, had a non-fetish porn dream the other week where I was about to engage in intercourse with a girl. Haven't had a dream like that I just naturally rewiring in some way without actually rewiring? Can't wait to do meditation in the coming weeks!
  9. CleanOfPain

    CleanOfPain New Member

    Now that you're feeling a lot better, you should still take care with what you write as I'm sure a lot of people are hanging on it.

    I highly highly doubt you saw no improvements *at all* during the first 14 months. Month to month you see little things.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm 10 months in and I still feel generally AWFUL, but when I compare myself to the start, there are SO many milestones I have hit. Socially, in concentration span, in creativity, in self awareness. I mean I'm still socially shitty but I'm fucking miles ahead of where I was. Journalling is important to see this kind of stuff.

    Wouldn't a better way to phrase it be "it was 14 months until I felt at all 'good' again"? There are lots of levels of bad, but it doesn't mean you're not improving.

    I also think it's important to point out that you don't need a girlfriend to feel the benefits of d2 upregulation, so it's possibly the lack of loneliness with your girlfriend moving in helped spur you on, but it's certainly not necessary to improve psychologically.

    A girlfriend might be necessary to improve in getting hard all the time though, but I couldn't give a shit about that right now.

    Another note for everyone - at 10 months I still very rarely get morning wood. I get it occasionally and sometimes have a phase of a week or two of getting it, and more so recently, but on any given day I most likely won't have it. It can take time.

    It's also important to note that I was never hugely into porn, just MO and fantasy (and phases of porn). Same effect.

    And lastly to add another input to a previous question, my symptoms do not all line up into "good" and "bad" days.

    For example - I might have a REALLY depressed day but be far more sociable that day.
    - I might have a day when I'm feeling more at ease but be socially brain dead that day
    - I might have a day where I'm concentrating and in the zone to power through stuff at work, but be really self conscious on the way home.

    It doesn't line up for me.

    There is no point analysing day to day, or week to week - month to month is better but you sometimes get 1month + shitty phases. It just slowly gets better even though you may go well past the point of exhaustion. You just keep going
  10. dustyduster

    dustyduster New Member

    That's how it feels to me as well.

    I relapsed to porn fantasy today, and the surprising thing feels like it didn't set me back at all really. It didn't feel anywhere near as stimulating as an actual PMO session. And even better, didn't get noticeable physical symptoms aside from a slight weakness in my legs (which was brief, did it standing up) and a warmth on my face (is that normal for an orgasm? Hard to find information about it online).

    My symptoms have been getting better too, in only 2 months, I can feel my ability to enjoy things return. The other day, I made myself play Thief The Dark Project (no, I am not addicted to video games, porn took my ability to enjoy video games away ironically enough) and you know what? I felt at ease, and my concentration wasn't too bad either. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE MISSED FOR THE LAST YEAR! I just couldn't believe it. Signs of actual improvement, even if it's up and down like PAWS.

    Perhaps I wasn't as deep into it as others, I only PMOed (looked at porn since 10 though) since I was 15, and started my current streak a few days before turning 19, so perhaps my recovery will not take quite as long. Who knows.

    Going to go out and try and socialise to speed things up a little, and start doing creative things again to make myself feel more at ease (even during my darker moments).
  11. Borges08

    Borges08 Member

    Bit of a necro but cheers man. I'm abstaining as much as possible. I haven't had a wet dream in almost 2 months I think, when I used to have them once every 2 weeks and literally hitting my head hard, so I know it's all orgasm related despite what other people tell me. I still can't MO and recovery is insanely slow.

    I was on 40mg lexapro which was helping my mood but made my head feel like shit, so I weened myself off to 20mg and feeling a bit better.

    I feel no pleasure having an orgasm even from a blowjob. Nothing. I had one before and afterwards I was just like wow that sucked horribly. It was still better than MO days afterwards but still it's not good to have orgasms yet. I've had way too many since rebooting and feel horrible every day. Just depression/anger/anxiety.

    I saw how you were at the concert and too anxious to even nod your head. That's basically how I feel every single day in my current state. I'm at the point where I keep telling myself I wish I never started rebooting, that I was in too deep and it was too late.
  12. RebornAgain

    RebornAgain Beating my addiction one day at a time.. Staff Member

    Borges I've been clean since June of 2014, almost 17 months clean with no relapses and FINALLY I'm just now getting sensitivity back in my penis. 17 months straight of being clean.

    This is a process and it takes a long time to recover.
  13. Borges08

    Borges08 Member

    I've relapsed way too much in the 2 years I've been rebooting and it will no doubt take years of abstinence again I feel like I have no chance of recovery for a really long time.
  14. 40New30

    40New30 Keep going

    Thanks makes me feel better, I've got a serious case of DE right now; was never this bad before; it's just part of the rebooting process and it takes a while.
  15. RebornAgain

    RebornAgain Beating my addiction one day at a time.. Staff Member

    40New30 - From months 15 until 17 (until about a week ago) I had another flatline. Complete dead dick. No morning woods. No erections for sex.

    Before that flatline I had severe DE. Could not cum from sex. I've had ejaculations from sex twice in the last week and have my first wet dream since I was 13 or 14.

    Recovery is very odd. Swings from premature ejaculation, to delayed ejaculation, to flatline, to who knows where I end up next!
  16. 40New30

    40New30 Keep going

    That also gives me a more perspective, thanks. I fully expect a long recovery but chills me out and underscores that notion.
  17. Freedom from Servitude

    Freedom from Servitude Active Member

    Hi Altruism, have just read through your thread and I am so glad that I did. Thank you for taking the effort to share your journey honestly. It has been a very long time since we last heard from you, which I assume is a good thing for you. I wonder whether you would mind posting an update to complete your story? It would help a lot of us. I'm over two years into recovery and still feel that something is missing, so I would take great comfort in seeing that there is another side to this.
  18. simon1986

    simon1986 Member

    Altruism. Wish I'd seen this success story before. I'm here for the updates.

    The symptoms and lack of social functioning u described is so familiar.

    I too, realise I go through phases where my anxiety has vanished. Whereas for over a decade my anxiety was 100% every day. So I know the phases of no anxiety are a result of the one thing I removed from my life style.

    You're totally right about what you've said.

    In my example, I'll have a few days at work where I'm being awkward and second guessing what people are thinking about me, stammering, socially incompatible with everyone. Then the following week the exact same situations I'm handling like a breeze, for no reason, and I'm being a really chilled out relaxed version of me. This version of me existed full time before I started pmo at age 13. Now it's slowly, occasionally coming back.

    I'm hard mode for life now, as my social, work and family life is more important to me than sex. Never thought I'd say it, but until my anxiety is gone for good (I'm talking really bad anxiety where I can't speak properly, can't make decisions, sweat profusely) then sex and (intentional) orgasm is off the cards . My brain has been overstimulated for over a decade and I'm recovering from it. It'll take as long as it takes.

    Now I've started to get a glimpse of what anxiety free life can be like, I want it for good. And I'm not risking for a relationship, sex or an orgasm. It's the relationship with myself that needs saving first.

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