Religion poll

I guess satanist's don't fap :

 

Heil Satan!

 

Was enjoying a conversation with you above and was looking forward to continuing. Why would you say something like "heil satan" after passionately using the best of your intellect to present an argument against the existence of God? It's simply to insight anger in those who disagree with you. Such a lack of maturity always brings productive debates to a halt.

 

I'm sorry. You're right, that was in bad taste. It was in reference to BATFE's comment. I really hope you can forgive me, because I would like to continue the discussion we were having...I don't actually worship Satan.

 

You can be an agnostic and an atheist at the same time.

 

I think both sides of the debate are guilty of hindering scientific discovery. You've got the folks that think science has all the answers and anyone else that thinks otherwise is an idiot. Professors are fired, books are moved to less legitimate areas, school teachers are terrified to have an opinion, etc. Then on the religious side you've got a handful of literalists that panic should scientific findings appear to be in contradiction to their most literal understanding of biblical teachings. I believe the Bible is the true Word of God revealed to man and it is perfectly designed to serve it's perfect purpose. I've never struggled to put the Bible into the context of who created me, why, why this world is screwed up, how we should live, and most importantly how we can be reconciled to that perfection that we ourselves tainted through our own decisions. I've never seen the point of trying to use my Bible as a biology or physics book. Similarly, having a technical education, I always saw science for what it was. Man's attempt to describe and manipulate things far beyond our true comprehension. Our science is so outrageously inadequate for the most simple of problems. We observe, model with mathematics, and then make drastic simplifying assumptions. That approach is enough to put a man on the moon and split atoms. Each new revelation yields a new set of questions of infinite complexity. That is one of the marvels of God. Simply asking questions like "what is mass"? Scientists keep finding smaller and smaller subatomic particles, but the question remains unanswered. Even if it were answered at some level, we'd be left with a new set of questions. Same goes for the origin of the universe. Surely we will learn more about it, just to be left with infinite complexity.

In any case, just as you suggest that there remains ample opportunity for scientific discovery, I think it close minded to assume God is not ultimately the final answer to our questions.

I would argue that there is evidence for God, not to your surprise. For me it's all around me and there's an obvious elegance about it, but not everyone has the same perspective on the miracle that is their own consciousness and sharing it with the universe around us. We're born with an innate sense of curiosity about our existence and purpose. A lot of people get steered in the wrong direction because of their circumstances, the bad actors influencing their lives, the hypocrisy of the religious elect, and the pure horror that reveals itself daily in our world. They draw the conclusion that this can't be the creation of a flawless benevolent being. It's the wrong conclusion. The God I know is a loving Father that treats me with patience and gentle guidance. I believe He sheds years just as I do over the fact ever went down the path of porn addiction.

I don't have much more to add really other than to say what you've heard before and have likely grown to despise: God loves you, and He's got a purpose for you if you'll accept it.

God makes this promise to all those who will listen:

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

I put more stock in this promise than I do in Newton's Laws.

 

Science does not have all of the answers. It offers the most logical explanations for the questions of life and the Universe, by using observation, evidence and deductive reasoning. The purpose of science is to look for answers to life's questions, but to only accept them when they can be verified with proof. The scientific revolution has led to advances in medicine, the discovery and utilization of electricity, automobiles, refrigeration to keep your food cold, the sequencing of the human genome,...the list goes on and on. How could you say that science cannot solve the simplest of problems, when it is clear that it can solve the most complex of problems, that we once could only dream to be solved?

Of course there are always more questions to be answered upon a new scientific discovery. This is the beauty of science. There is always a quest for more and more information. This might seem like it makes things more complex for you, but I have news for you, the Universe IS complex! The solution is to try and learn more, not to shut off the learning process by conceding and saying that God did it. This has no proof and it doesn't solve anything, it just gives us a temporary feeling as if we understand the Universe, when we don't, in fact. Human curiosity and sense of purpose are not evidence for the existence of God. If you can explain to me how it is, I'm all ears. I think I could actually make a decent explanation for how human curiosity and purpose are tied to forces or nature and evolution.

Can anyone, who believes in God and his "perfect" creation, explain to me why many humans on Earth, are born into starvation and die soon after suffering for the entirety of their short lives?

 

Atheist.

 

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

-Epicurus

 

To your first comment... I pursued an education in science and a technical career. It's in my humble opinion that science in it's present state is vastly overestimated. It's our arrogance and limited perspective the leads us to be impressed with ourselves. The most complex engineering problems are solved by grossly simplifying systems of equations such that our mathematics can solve them, applying empirical data obtained from repeat testing and observation, and then implementing with predictable results based on our observations. I know a ball drops with a certain acceleration "due to gravity", but we don't know what gravity is. We know the force required to accelerate an object is proportional to its mass, but we don't know what mass is. We're not sure why light waves have characteristics of both particles and waves, and yet we can reach confident conclusions either way. VERY simple mathematical expressions describing our world are often simple and elegant with whole numbers for powers and roots. Add any complexity and we simply perform experiments, collect the data, and then use a computer to apply a curve to the data, thus generating an equation that can be applied to predict that behavior...again with very little true complete understanding of what we're doing. We're so easily impressed with ourselves, and yet our most fantastic, expensive, complex machines look like clumsy, inefficient jokes compared to the creatures and systems God has created. Mapping the human genome is impressive? Imagine developing it from scratch. Is there a human being that can sit down and right the code necessary to develop a human being? Place that code in a self replicating machine that can grow a human being? Or even fly...just to keep it easier on us. A fly...vastly more efficient and complex than our most advanced fighter jets that cost billions and required thousands of the worlds sharpest engineers over decades and decades. Your list of impressive accomplishments is a joke compared to the works of the Creator. There is an infinite difference between our works and His.

To your second quote, I'd like to spend more time that I don't have tonight copy pasting the actual chapter and verse promises of just how seriously God takes your questions. If he hadn't answered those questions, I too would be deeply disturbed about His nature. He addresses those issues in a very up front and powerful way. First, the world is "fallen". Separated from God due to our disobedience. Hence the suffering and atrocities. Second, God doesn't turn a blind eye. He's intensely angry and has made it very clear what He intends to do about it. He's advised those that hurt children that it would have been better to have never existed. He warns the religious hypocrites that He will cast them away from His presence as "evil doers". He's promised to come bearing a sword and it will be soaked with the blood of His enemies. He promises to throw Satan and the unrepentant into eternal separation and punishment...eternal.

Tell me, does this God sound like a God that is indifferent to the sins of man?

With regards to preventing evil, well that goes back to my original comment: would you rather expect He create mindless compliant robots? Would you rather be a robot? Why is it people want to blame God for the evil in this world, rather than recognize that human beings make the decisions to be evil and hurt the innocent. God assures they will not go unpunished, but when he threw us into this fallen world He made it very clear that it would not be as it should have been had we only obeyed.

If evil is an argument against God, rather than an acknolwedgement that there is an opposing good, then what "scientific" or natural force to survive explains all the evil? If we're animals, then why are we the only ones that seem to step so far outside simple violence and conflict and venture into extreme cruelty and perversion?

 

Look man, this is ridiculous. Are you really going to try to make the argument that "science isn't what it's all cracked up to be?" Science is supported by facts. If you reject science based on skepticism, then how can you justify believing in the Bible? It's a mythical fairytale book written thousands of years ago, before we knew what an atom or a germ was, or that the Earth was round and revolved around the sun. Not to mention that the Bible has been re-written and re-edited so many times by authority figures for political reasons.

Do you believe the Earth is 6,000 years old? That there was a talking snake in the Garden of Eden? That Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge? I would really like to know the answers to these questions, because it would allow me to gauge your level of rational thinking.

 

I just made exactly that argument. Our science is astonishingly basic amongst infinite complexity. I didn't reject anything about the scientific process and have advocated it in each argument. What I reject is the exclusion of God as a perfectly logical ultimate answer. What I reject is man's arrogance and the reduction of our existence to a dismal, hopeless, meaningless, agonizing journey to non existence. We're not simple beasts. We're intelligent beings made in the image of Almighty God. My rhetoric isn't strong enough, my intellect isn't smart enough, the fact that I care doesn't give me the ability to open your eyes. You can challenge my ability for rational thought if you like, but it's like a blind and deaf man trying to dispute what another man that can see and hear. Just as there are liberals, moderates, conservatives in politics there's a myriad of categories of folks arguing God's influence on creation. Personally, I'm not a literalist on all points. I accept the Christian faith as the faith with clear answers. The evidence speaks for itself that there's something wrong with mankind. Christ answered the key questions about God's infinite love and compassion for us through His offer of forgiveness. Many stop there and portray Christ as a sort of wandering non confrontational hippie, but that would leave us with the questions you quoted earlier. God further explains His rage that will burn against those who set themselves up as His enemies and those that have harmed the innocent. Christ came as a savior, but will return with judgement having already warned the wicked.

Bottom line is, I see a very obvious spiritual aspect of our existence and you don't. My evidence starts with the miracle of my own existence which you've reduced to nothing marvelous. You cling to our frail accomplishments as evidence that we can eventually span the infinite gap that separates our minuscule knowledge from God's infinite knowledge.

Anyways, if we've debated ad nauseam and you've reduced me to an irrational layman in your mind, then I don't actually have anything more to add.

 

If I'm going to live a certain way out of fear of punishment then I need a little more than a book written thousands of years ago with nothing else to back it up its claims to give me reason to do so.

 

I'm a Hindu.

 

Replace "science" with "religion" and that was the prevailing mindset in medieval Europe. Arrogance and limited perspective is what got people killed just for suggesting that the sun doesn't revolve around the Earth! Or the fact that women were stoned to death over adultery accusations. I should add that I'm not an atheist troll, and that there are some religions I can tolerate. But it is quite funny to see christians walk around with this false sense of superiority. That's when I have to show them what a stupid pagan religion christianity is (take note that christianity is written in lower-case- it doesn't even command that little respect).

 

you didn't answer my questions.

 

So God created parasitic worms which feed on the eyes of children causing them to go blind, for some greater good did he? Love to know what you think that could be.

And God is able to help this man but choses not to:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2581574/Father-one-loses-three-limbs-half-face-flesh-eating-bacteria-started-common-cold-just-FOUR-months-ago.html

Who is god to tell this man that he is suffering for a purpose and he could help him out but sorry that doesn't fit with my "timeline".

Wtf is this God of yours, some kind of maniac psychopath?

 

This doesn't explain horrific deseases which kill innocent children every day. Explain that please.