Reason vs. AntiFap Brigade (Warning: long OP, so don't tl;dr me)

Discussion in 'Pornography Addiction' started by Hellborg, Aug 24, 2013.

  1. WoLong

    WoLong Guest

    We should recognize the distinction between attraction and fantasy. One can feel attracted without sexually fantasizing.
     
  2. al1234

    al1234 Guest

    also, just btw, it was the pro-fappers who started all these threads recently, so don't blame me for this debate.
     
  3. TheUnderdog

    TheUnderdog Active Member Staff Member

    Everything Al is talking about only made sense to me after I got a girlfriend. It is insanely difficult to commit when you're constantly lusting after other women.

    It might not be a problem for a normal guy, but we're addicts.

    Our brains are different.

    For example, I keep turning my head around to fixate on women's asses I see at the mall. I don't see normal guys do that, they just check them out and look away.

    If I see a shemale prostitute on the street, I would probably feel a dopamine rush and get a hard on. My friends would probably feel nothing.

    Oh, and 99.9% of the guys with PIED are addicted.
     
  4. ppycat

    ppycat Guest

    are you real, man? really, what are you doing on this forum? if masturbation equals real sex to you, then you are not addicted, you just found your inner desires :).

    captain obvious answer: masturbating while fantasizing about someone is fake and re-enforces your links to fake stimulation. sex with a real girl is real sex and it helps by rewiring you to the real deal, which you need to get used to. one bloody stupid question you asked... :-\
     
  5. tsmith1302

    tsmith1302 Active Member

    Hi person with 40 posts who probably won't be around next month.

    I was simply pointing out the double standard in members (not just Al) pushing this idea that we need to have the purest reboots possible, and any orgasm is a setback, and oh yea I'm gonna have sex with my girlfriend when she's in the mood.

    I understand the decision on an emotional level, it's just glaringly obvious they want to have their cake and eat it too. So I don't want to hear them talk about how tough they are for abstaining.

    And ppycat, you know there ARE guys with girlfriends who choose or at least attempt not to have sex with them in order to heal. I tip my hat to them for talking the talk and walking the walk.

    Do you understand the point of my question now? Or do I need to break it down further?
     
  6. al1234

    al1234 Guest

    You obviously don't understand where I'm coming from because I never ever ever ever said that orgasms set you back. I didn't even say that MO sets you back. I have also been very clear that there a difference between real sex and pleasuring yourself.

    So please re-read my posts and try to understand the point of view you're arguing with.

    Man the pro-fappers seem so angry. Why is that?
     
  7. tsmith1302

    tsmith1302 Active Member

    More pot shots Al, really?

    Man the no-fappers relapse so often. Why is that?
     
  8. al1234

    al1234 Guest

    That was so not a pot shot man. You've got to lighten up.

    No-fappers miss their shots more because they're aiming for a smaller target, not because they're worse shots.
     
  9. tsmith1302

    tsmith1302 Active Member

    Ok fair, I did get a little defensive now when I shouldn't have.

    Do you understand where I'm coming from though? Why it's frustrating to hear guys with a sexual outlet ie girlfriend puff their chest about "abstaining"?

    Like OK good for you, you're not masturbating or beating off to porn or visiting hookers. That's nice. But you're having sex often, which while there's nothing wrong with that, I can't applaud your willpower either. For you there's tangible motivation not to do behaviors XYZ and for single rebooters there isn't.

    We should have a sub forum for guys in relationships. It's a totally different ball game.
     
  10. ppycat

    ppycat Guest

    you got to the point where you get pride from a number of entries in a database. that's quite bad actually :)

    anyway, I know there are guys with girlfriends who at least attempt not to have sex during the reboot. I'm one of them. but when you don't have sex with your girlfriend because you masturbate, then something is wrong. it's not the orgasm that sets you back, but orgasm to fantasy and lack of wiring to real females.

    so during your reboot, if you have the chance to masturbate fantasizing about something or have sex with your girlfriend, go for the last one, it will probably help more. if you abstain from real sex, then at least be a fucking man and abstain for good, don't even touch your mushroom tip.
     
  11. Metal

    Metal Get busy living or get busy dying

    What is this competition all about?

    If you're comfortably masturbating while abstaining from porn, then it's your business

    If you're not refrain from both masturbation and porn and it's your business.

    Recovery is individual. Some people don't have ed and just want to refrain from porn, which to me is fine.

    If you have ed then completely eliminate it

    For me even though I don't have ed masturbation doesn't work for me because it makes absolutely no sense and the cons outweigh any positives. I mean you get literally a few seconds of pleasure and then for what? to feel relaxed and lifeless afterwards?
     
  12. al1234

    al1234 Guest

    OK, now you've asked me something new. Phew, I was worried we would go round in circles forever.

    You're asking me how can I advocate no-fap when I don't need to fap because I have a GF. What you should realise tsmith (and I'm telling you this in advance so you're pre-armed) is that having a GF doesn't diminish the urge to MO one little bit. If anything it makes it worse. Sounds strange doesn't it? Counter intuitive at best. But it's true, I'm telling you as a guy who's been on both sides of this situation, and others I've spoken to all say the same thing.

    As UD was saying before, when you're in a relationship (which most of us are aiming for at some point) you can't MO, you can't check out other girls on the street, or talk to your friends about how hot some girl is, otherwise you'll find yourself single again really fast. You might think now that that will be easy when you have a GF. I promise you it's not. It adds a new dimension to the problem and can make it so much harder. If you think it's hard to not watch porn now, imagine how hard it is when you've just had an argument with your GF and she's out sulking with her friends, get what i mean? Porn never argues.

    If you still have a problem with pleasuring yourself, in whatever form that takes, when you get a GF, you're going to find the relationship much harder because there will always be prettier girls around, and even if you get 'miss world' the novelty factor of every girl in the world other than her will drive you nuts. Try not watching porn then.

    If you want some day to have a good relationship with your GF she has to be your one and only, that means not lusting after any other woman in the world. And it's damn hard, especially for porn addicts. That's why it's vital to fully work on this now, and not stop at half measures. They will only bite you on the ass later.
     
  13. tsmith1302

    tsmith1302 Active Member

    Was it really necessary to add that after you say it should be up to the individual?

    Al I appreciate this post but I feel there's some bias to it.

    You've been on both sides of the fence yes, but you seem to be forgetting how absurdly painful true loneliness can be.

    Yes I know a relationship presents a unique set of challenges. I totally get that. I'm sure there are some days when PMO or a hooker sounds pretty appealing.

    But I think you and perhaps me as well are falling into the grass is greener mentality. When you're single it's easier to be in a relationship, when you're in a relationship it's easier to be single.

    But I want you to think about when you were single, for an extended period of time, maybe sexually inexperienced too and the utter despair you felt at times. And if you never felt that well I certainly have. Loneliness eats away at the pit of my stomach, and the fact I've never been in a fulfilling relationship is like a black cloud hovering over me that I can't escape. It's not a matter of lust addiction, it's feeling incomplete as a human being because there's this emotional garden out there of companionship and consistent sex I haven't had the pleasuring of visiting yet. And believe me. I would gladly take the bullshit that comes with it.

    So, at the end of the day, I just can't feel bad for the guy who hasn't slept with his GF in a week and now he's pissed off because she'd rather go to a concert with her friends. That is, as I like to say, a "good problem to have". Being lonely and sitting in your room every weekend seeing all of your FB friends in relationships and wondering why the phone never rings is not.
     
  14. Metal

    Metal Get busy living or get busy dying

    I'm just saying how bewildering it is to me, to take part in such a practice while some people talk as if it's an absolute necessity
     
  15. al1234

    al1234 Guest

    You're right, I'm much happier now with my GF than I was before, I haven't forgotten anything. I'm not saying what you're going through is easy, I know, I've been there. Personally I never found MOing helped me feel better, if anything it made me more depressed. If you're feeling lonely and it's 'eating away at you' then maybe try exploring more constructive ways of dealing with that feeling.

    I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad about MOing. I think we shouldn't MO but we are human and we're not perfect. I slip up and MO sometimes, I call it a relapse and I move on, I don't let it get me down. no-fap is something I'm aiming for and haven't achieved yet. That's ok.

    What I'd say to single people is that lusting after women is counter-productive. First it makes us unhappy because we see so many women we want but can't have, and second it's a big turn-off for girls. We don't need to be walking around with sex on our minds all the time, we can let it go and just enjoy feeling like there's nothing in the world we need. There is a contentment that comes from not being grasping, not trying to get more and more for ourselves. And the irony is, and i've seen this happen many times, when you get that peace and contentment the right girl comes along soon after. I hope that happens for you soon tman.
     
  16. breath

    breath Active Member

    I appreciate your disclaimer about not wanting to make anyone feel bad. But we must agree to some extent that health in general is about a balance... not ultimate goals or perfection - and also if there was a philisophical argument towards a kind of perfection worth pursuing it'd be pretty cocky imo to think we humans may have it figured out (think history for a few seconds - noting all the knowers) . BALANCE, BALANCING, REBALANCING - good. Perfection, piousness - an illusion (however well intentioned. Balance is something that's everywhere in nature and all living things. As you say we are human and not perfect... But to me no fap as a goal described always seems to be a perfectionists goal (usually accompianied with the we are merely human disclaimer).

    I appreciate all your points esp re lusting after woman - but again... why not a balance?

    There is a desperate form of lust and a healthy form I believe. One's ultimate goal could include a personal balance of lusting, loving accepting... whatever... a balance in harmony with one's own self, in harmony with our society/world. Even over time in one's life a balance could be considered over time. That is it's going to have ebb and flow. Lust, serenity. Love, loss regeneration.

    Joni's honesty embraces this practice of accepting the human art of non perfection;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcrEqIpi6sg
     
  17. Hellborg

    Hellborg New Member

    I have been fapping and not come close to relapsing. Maybe some members on this forum have bigger issues with porn than others.
     
  18. TheUnderdog

    TheUnderdog Active Member Staff Member

    I agree 100% with every single word of this post.

    But don't forget we're talking about porn addicts here. Regular guys don't need to be that strict when it comes to lusting.
     
  19. TheUnderdog

    TheUnderdog Active Member Staff Member

    How long have you been around?

    When I got to 116 days of no porn I was just as confident as you.

    Stay humble.

    By the way, here's a quote from you:

    How does one actually overcome pornography addiction? You're wrong if you believe that all it takes to overcome addiction is to stop watching porn and replace it with productive activities. It goes much more deeper than that.

    A change in mindset regarding life and sex must take place. But I'm getting tired of repeating myself. Just wait until you get a girlfriend. See how you handle this whole women issue.

    I mean you got guys here who have ED and a girlfriend, yet they still relapse to porn and beat themselves up for it! That's because they haven't learned how to live without this world of endless pleasure with hot chicks that porn provides. They can't leave behind this obsession with lusting after girls. They can't leave behind the "high" that porn or any other kind of artificial stimulation provides.

    Or they might stay away from hardcore porn, but they're still constantly thinking "I want to fuck that girl and that one over there and that one there". They read PUA books hoping they can someday fuck hot chicks with big tits and round asses.

    Or take the guy who's only motivation to quit porn is getting rid of ED (me not so long ago). This is the typical single guy who at day 40 or whatever says "fuck it" and relapses, because he has no single prospect or woman around, so what's the point? I mean, if I'm not using my dick anytime soon, I might as well just fap to porn now and leave rebooting for later.

    I could go on and on. There's a reason why most people fail to recover. There's a reason why many guys relapse after 100 days.

    They are abstaining, but they're not changing the way they think.
     

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