Reason vs. AntiFap Brigade (Warning: long OP, so don't tl;dr me)

Discussion in 'Pornography Addiction' started by Hellborg, Aug 24, 2013.

  1. pimpski

    pimpski New Member

    Still gonna approach lots of girls, but id like to put the same amount of effort on finding happines apart from that.

    BTW: i am still dissapointed, that my suggestion to talk to every women you allow yourself to check out, didnt get more applause here.
  2. Musician1985

    Musician1985 New Member

    Thanks, Underdog for posting this. I'm doing a re-reboot - day 10 - and for me - I keep having intrusive/arousing images pop up of naked men. It's really kinda fucked up, considering I always knew I was straight. I know it will take a long time for me to recover - my girlfriend was saying it may take a few years to stabilize. I kinda agree. And I know the healthy lifestyle is the one I want - not the lustful one. So, in my attempt to regain balance, I want to limit masturbation to when I'm super-horny and don't have a fuck. Do you think my tastes will stabilize though, to my old hetero self? I ask, because the question posed here was, "what do you do after you've rebooted?". And I hope that when I will masturbate, and not obsessively like before, that my tastes will be happy and hetero again.
  3. hogus

    hogus Well-Known Member

    I think you need to understand that in a debate, generally speaking without making any assumptions about this specific one, one side must eventually change their viewpoint. The sides are usually directly opposing so they can't both be right. If I explain how the evidence you have provided is invalid and you don't try and contradict me then nothing is "convenient". In a debate that means the point has been closed. It's not a matter of convenience.

    From my interactions with you I can only assume that you're not out to find the truth, the most optimal solution or to help others, but to preach your own potentially misguided opinion without any thought for the experience of others so I'm leaving this debate.
  4. Fencepost

    Fencepost Member

    Maybe some of you can return to normal on the porn equivalent of a juice fast, while others will need the porn equivalent of a water fast. This TEDx talk explains:
  5. tsmith1302

    tsmith1302 Active Member

    Al, that makes absolutely no sense. How do you think most people developed porn induced erectile dysfunction?

    From compulsively masturbating to porn. PIED did not happen in isolation.

    I would in fact argue the opposite of what you are saying. Nearly everybody with PIED is or was a porn addict. The two are very closely related. So we can basically look at the two interchangeably. But not all porn addicts have PIED.

    Gary has repeated ad naseum that orgasm abstinence is a solution to PIED, but is not always necessary for regular porn addiction.

    And I am proof that somebody can masturbate on a very regular basis but still stave off porn or the need for visual stimulation. Yes I've slipped here and there but I haven't relapsed in a quite a while. If anything masturbating often has helped me stay porn free.

    To the OP, I agree with you for the most part but it's a complicated issue. The best advice anybody can give is to "do what works". And if what you're doing isn't working, try a new approach.
  6. al1234

    al1234 Guest

    tsmith, there is an obvious distinction between PIED and porn addiction. PIED is caused by watching too much porn and does not necessarily mean the person is addicted to porn. Porn addiction can cause PIED inasmuch as it means the person is watching too much porn, but it doesn't always.

    I don't remember Gary giving advice on how to overcome an addiction, I'm not aware of him being an addiction specialist anyway. I am relaying what I have been told by several addiction specialists.

    What you keep saying about 'managing' to keep off porn by masturbating is frankly absurd. It's like congratulating yourself for staying off marijuana by getting drunk every night. You're not addressing an addiction, you're just distracting yourself so you don't get porn urges. No, I'm not saying you have to stop masturbating because perhaps you're not a true addict, but those of us who are true addicts have to completely reform the way we view 'pleasuring ourselves' in whatever form that takes, because if not, no matter how long we abstain from whatever we consider the problem, we are only delaying the inevitable relapse.

    Do you know how many members of my SAA group were sober for well over a year before they relapsed again and went right back to where they started? They all come back and say the same thing "half measures avail us nothing". We don't all have to go through the same steep learning curve, we can learn from other people's experiences.
  7. This!
  8. breath

    breath Active Member

    'It's like congratulating yourself for staying off marijuana by getting drunk every night.'

    This so simplistic.
    A weak analogy.

    reeks of guilty psyche culture.

    If i was to employ a weak obscure analogy like pot/booze to masturbation/porn ... using a natural bodily function... well i'd have to really qualify... give specifics with which to scrutinize the analogy.

    but maybe we need less of these clever/lazy analogies and more hard thinking with evidence. not evidence borrowed from one avenue and cut and pasted to another. but evidence from careful, thorough examination.

    I think all we feel and know in our guts that there are many things about modern living that are contrary to good natural human health. but the attack on these (porn and masturbation to name a couple) should be done carefully and thoroughly so as to keep our theories from walking out too far on thin ice, and influencing each other in hoardes and not turning into door to door peddlars of something which is vague + full of holes.

    the use of the TED video above also is another case of sloppy weak equation. I'm trying to find a respectful way of criticizing here... not trying to bash ideas of those who i consider friendly and caring and intelligent... but I think, while as people we all carry a lot of experiance, we must be careful about sloppily drawn assertions. These days a liberal modern thinker still has cultural guilt and associations of their god fearing ancestors from a mere generation or 2 backward. Often it's these distant voices, finding another catch phrase for a false eureeka. So if our science, data, assumption chain is as sketchy as a video post explaining purportedly explaining something which is quite different, complex, widespread and individual. I'm glad that there is a fight against the machine, against the matrixes, but as far as maximizing my own health, I'm better off grazing the experiances of many others. The proof in each case, is more likely in the pudding.
  9. tsmith1302

    tsmith1302 Active Member

    Nonsense. You can't look at me with a straight face and say the casual porn user gets PIED. It's excessive porn use that causes it. I'm not going to waste time arguing semantics. Anybody that watches so much porn it causes PIED would have a very difficult time quitting. Therefore they are addicted. You know this Al.

    He's constantly clarifying that the abstinence recommendation is for PIED.

    Posted by Gary on YBOP:

    Is he a "specialist" on addiction? Depends on your definition, but he seems to know as much about PMO addiction as anybody. And if he said something that supported your claims I'm sure you would be referencing him too.

    I understand what you are saying. You're not wrong really. But "full measures" aren't doing much for people here either. The success rate on this website is fucking low, regardless.

    Look, most of us will be fighting this battle for the rest of our lives. It's delusional to think there's a finish line after X amount of days or X number of completed workshops. And yes, it goes without saying you can be sober for a year or ten years (no matter what your or my definition of "sober" is) and still jack off to porn because fuck it, porn will always be tempting as fuck.

    So my approach is to understand my limitations and not torture myself into healing. I've drawn a line in the sand (porn is bad, masturbation not so bad) and as long as I adhere to that and I'm a contributing member of society otherwise then I am pleased with my progress and the state of my reboot. Not constantly feeling like I'm at war with my inner demons has made the process not only tolerable, but down right enjoyable for me. Can you say the same thing Al?

    Look, drive yourself crazy all you want. Go balls to the wall sober for a few weeks and then relapse hard. You keep thinking there's some magical point where the addiction finally buries itself. I hope for everybody's sake you're right but I'm not holding my breath.
  10. al1234

    al1234 Guest

    That's exactly what I said. I said ''too much porn'', you're saying I said ''casual porn user'', I didn't say that.

    Again, thank you for agreeing with me. He was clearly talking about PIED not porn addiction. He said PIED, he didn't even mention the word addiction in what you quoted.

    That's cos it's hard. I know that as well as anyone.

    But it's necessary. You say that you understand your limitations, I think it's a shame you have such low confidence in your own abilities as a mature, rational human being. You ask if I enjoy my life right now, the answer is yes. I have everything I want out of life, including sobriety for the most part. I have only masturbated 3 times over 2 months, which means 59 days of sobriety out of 62, and I think that's pretty good although I want to be even better. But I still focus on recovery because I know if I don't it I'll end up back to the beginning again. So could you, so could any of us. That's why I'm trying to address my addiction in full now, while I'm still young, and not stop at half-measures.

    I'm not sure you understand. You say the process is now enjoyable, so what? I found the process of PMOing for 15 years enjoyable. Perhaps it's a shame that you don't have any sobriety to compare it to. Maybe you've never experience a day when you just let go of your lust. Imagine walking around for 15 years carrying a heavy case and eventually you realise you just don't need it and you let it go. That's what it feels like. If you don't want that that's fine, I just think it's a shame that you've chosen to accept life like this when there is a better alternative if you let yourself believe that you can do it.
  11. tsmith1302

    tsmith1302 Active Member

    No, I'm not agreeing with you. You're pushing abstinence as a solution for porn addiction, under the guise that's what experts are recommending. Gary has said it is an effective cure for PIED, but never once said it needs to be taken off the table to treat regular porn addiction. In fact he's saying the exact opposite.

    Do you have any quotes from Gary suggesting otherwise? You either didn't read what I posted from him or you're just being cute.

    Either way, you and him fundamentally disagree on this issue.

    You're acting pretty high and mighty for a guy who relapsed an hour ago. You're lumping no masturbation into "recovery". That's fine. Your approach is your approach and you certainly have the right to tackle this however you want. It just doesn't seem to be working well at all.

    We are humans. We were created by sex and instinctively seek it. We have to accept our sexual urges will always be there. That's what drew us to porn in the first place. Long before the addiction took it's hold. You seem to remember yourself being a perfect little angel before you discovered the toxic beast known as internet porn, and the world was a beautiful puritanical place back when nobody had a computer. Wrong.

    Yes today's high speed porn is out of fucking control, and it's easy to fall into a lazy and addicting pattern of over-indulgence. But this idea that we have the potential to be bulletproof and can "dismiss erotic thoughts immediately" is really just building a house of cards that is destined to collapse at some point. For most of us, a few weeks or months is all it takes. For you it happened an hour ago.

    Why not take a pragmatic approach and simply separate the stimulating from the hyper-stimulating? Sex isn't going away any time soon. A good long-term plan is identifying what's problematic, doing your best to avoid that specifically, and going on with your life.
  12. WoLong

    WoLong Guest

    Do you have an actual argument? Vague, unsubstantiated accusations of perceived imperfections in an opposing thought process do not constitute an actual argument.
  13. lalisor

    lalisor New Member

    No more half measures Walter.
  14. al1234

    al1234 Guest

    He said it helps for PIED, he never said it doesn't help for porn addiction. He wasn't talking about porn addiction. If I say that water is a good liquid for swimming in, is that the same as saying water is not good for anything else?

    And even if he did say that, his opinion wouldn't override the opinion of the addiction experts I've spoken to.

    So, I was wondering how long it would take to get personal.

    Back in mature-land, as I keep saying, I'm only talking to true porn addicts and you might not be one. It's OK to have PIED without being addicted to porn. If you are addicted to porn then I don't see how you're addressing your addiction, you're just covering it up.
  15. tsmith1302

    tsmith1302 Active Member

    "Perhaps it's a shame that you don't have any sobriety to compare it to" was a pot shot, like I've never conquered a personal problem and I have no baseline for what it feels like to be happy and content. And that I'm so foolish I can't wrap my head around the idea that not doing something is better than doing it. It's more complicated than that though.

    Al, you really seem to have this fantasy that the world is a non-sexual place and anybody with lust is a deviant.

    "Dismiss erotic thoughts immediately" - don't you have a girlfriend? Don't you have sex with her? So you obviously have some erotic thoughts and you act on them when it suits you. Your line in the sand is just different from mine. But you'll find some silly way to justify what you do and condemn what I do, while maintaining you have this ironclad blanket approach when in reality you don't and very few people here do.

    Why is masturbation harmful to recovery and sex with your girlfriend isn't? Aren't you acting on an impulsive and raw sexual urge? Please explain to me how having sex qualifies as dismissing an erotic thought immediately because I'd like to know.

    And that's the crux of my issue really. People on this forum insist on spreading rhetoric and one size fits all baloney, and that they "get it", and anybody who disagrees doesn't understand the full scope of addiction. Bull. Shit.

    By luck I don't have PIED but I was a later in life virgin with a severe addiction to hardcore porn and camming. We're talking about 300+ gigs and multiple hours nightly on a certain site. Guess what? Since I started rebooting I lost my virginity, cut my porn consumption down by at least 90%, went on several good no PMO runs and feel an overall sense of well-being and personal growth that wasn't there a year ago. Maybe by your definition I'm failing miserably and don't understand the healing process but in my mind I'm doing pretty fucking good.
  16. volition

    volition New Member

    Hellborg, I'm new to the forum, and I think that's a great way to explain what I perceive as healthy, normal masturbation. You could exchange the words 'coerce your penis into being stimulated' with any other form of addictive substance: drugs, alcohol, etc and it would still be a great clarifying point on the difference between healthy behaviour and addictive behaviour.

    Thanks for posting.
  17. al1234

    al1234 Guest

    was not meant as a pot-shot, sorry if it came off like that. I'm just trying to open up to you the idea that you are not really dealing with your addiction and you don't realise it yet because you've never seen the other side.

    As regards your question about why lust is a problem and sex isn't, I tried to explain that here:

  18. al1234

    al1234 Guest

    Another point about relapses, or as we call it in SAA 'acting out' which I think is important although perhaps not well articulated here:

  19. tsmith1302

    tsmith1302 Active Member

    Oh come on. That might be the biggest load of fluff and empty rhetoric I've ever seen.

    If I check out a cute girl at the mall, it doesn't mean I'm imprisoned in my own private hell. We need to separate the stuff that is an actual problem and should be addressed, and the stuff that is virtually harmless.

    You can't lump a four hour porn session with 12 tabs open and fantasizing about a sexy girl on the train in the same category. One is incredibly addicting and releases an absurd dopamine spike into the brain for a prolonged period of time and the other is essentially a "reflex"-type of reaction that has been going on since the dawn of creation and as far as I know has never given a guy ED.

    Maybe on paper, the "lust addiction" rationale sounds like a fair approach and a very efficient way of healing PMO addiction at the root. The problem is it's insanely idealistic and not sustainable. Yes, there's a monk somewhere 3000 miles away who has the purest brain imaginable but besides the rarest of exceptions, EVERYBODY who tries your approach will succumb to the pressure of their own weight.

    Would you throw a guy in prison for 30 years over a speeding ticket? From where I sit there's a pretty clear distinction between him and the serial rapist. Because that's essentially what you're doing with the guy fantasizing and the guy binging on hardcore bestiality scat porn. It's all the same, right? For you or SA or whoever to take a complicated brain addiction that has manifested itself rapidly in the last 5 years based on technological advances and attempt to boil it down into this horse shit idea that we should monitor every single sexual thought and make sure it's bound within some set of natural parameters, god damn, I'm at a loss for words honestly Al.

    Please read what Gary said again and let it sink in. His understanding of addiction is rooted in science, logic, and pragmatism while yours is based on treating any sexual urge that doesn't pertain to one-on-one intercourse like the boogie man.

  20. al1234

    al1234 Guest

    I'm not sure why you keep quoting something that has nothing to do with the issue. He's talking about PIED. PIED. PIED. OK? I'm talking about addiction. I agree that reboot is not 'all or nothing'. But addiction recovery is a very different thing from a reboot (also not all or nothing but we should aim for perfect ongoing recovery unlike PIED where once you're cured you're cured).

    Of course I'm not saying all forms of acting out are equally bad, they're just all part of the problem. Stop arguing with things I haven't said.

    I think I've made my point perfectly clearly and highlighted some reasons why porn addicts should stay away from masturbation. All I ever hear from pro-fappers basically boils down to "but it's too hard". OK, it's too hard for you, fine. I'm not ready to give up yet.

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