Reason vs. AntiFap Brigade (Warning: long OP, so don't tl;dr me)

Discussion in 'Pornography Addiction' started by Hellborg, Aug 24, 2013.

  1. Hellborg

    Hellborg New Member

    Pavlov's dog is rudimentary behavioral psychology, explaining only one type of classical conditioning (which is only one part of conditioning as a subject). And yet, according to this expert, Pavlov's dog is why an addict shouldn't masturbate. It's just that simple!


    Several on this board have made the argument that the "wiring" (neural pathways) returns if an ex-addict faps, but so far there is no evidence, like there is of porn addiction and modern porn being unhealthy. In fact, according to one of the videos linked on the front page of yourbrainonporn, older men conquered porn-induced ED faster than younger guys, obviously suggesting that modern porn is worse than vintage. But think, these older men reported ED AFTER high-speed net. Were they just not jacking it prior to their addiction? Of course not.
    So, masturbation isn't the proven issue, it's modern porn and the nature of the Internet (meaning even jacking it to bikini pictures is dangerous, because you will eventually escalate to quickly flicking through them, escelating to partial, then full nudes, etc.). And now, Playboy isn't even an option. We simply live in a different age.

    Leaving porn is logical, because of what the evidence shows us. What isn't logical is the "wiring argument": orgasm from masturbation restores the neural pathways we worked to destroy in the first place. Effectively, MO becomes PMO, since neural pathways directly influence our behavior.

    Bullshit, again.

    First off, neurons are not killed off and regenerated that easily. Additionally, we do not influence these processes very directly. And neither do the processes influence our behavior very directly. Frankly, none of us can really pretend to understand neuroscience so well, because the specialists themselves do not. It is a new field in comparison to even something like computer science.

    Second, if we were to follow through with the logic that MO --> PMO, then 0 would --> MO. Then obviously, MO would --> PMO. Conclusion: no sex. But none of you want to say that. I hate to be rude, but I think is for a number of things:
    - You don't want to sound crazy.
    - You lack the forethought to get to the O --> MO stage, after concluding MO --> PMO.
    - You still want to have sex.
    - You are a virgin. And after being a lonely voyeur, you don't want to give up on some day losing your virginity. (Please realize this is not an "lol u hav no lyfe" argument.)

    I will not even address the "lust addiction" nonsense some members are peddling. The idea that porn addiction will translate into lust addiction is outrageous for a number of clearcut reasons. The most obvious being (once again, from the very same video on the front page I mentioned!!) that unlike alcohol addiction, porn addiction is a behavioral one that hits a lot of guys fast. The rate at which porn addiction affects the population is plastic and growing, in comparison to the relatively flat rate of alcohol.

    The no-MO crap would be understandable if it came from guys with theo-spiritual reasons; or if they believed they lacked the willpower to MO without PMO. But these are subjective reasons. Instead, we have several members of this board (whom I have titled the "AntiFap Brigade") who dogmatically proclaim unto others that masturbation is dangerous for EVERYONE, and even destructive to any progress made--both on an emotional and neuro-plastic level. The reason the AFB does this is simple: They need "scientific evidence" they are correct, so their belief can be objective. This helps to eliminate cognitive dissonance. It's just like when you see uneducated people pulling "statistics" out of their ass to suit their political causes; easing cognitive dissonance with percevied objectivity is easier than willfully sticking to your subjective convictions.

    The trouble is, people who use objectivity to their own ends (rather than allowing evidence and objectivity to speak for themselves) betray their insecurity by rushing to tell everyone who disagrees with them how wrong they are. It isn't enough to believe in themselves. They must convince everyone else too, because if the majority believe in something, it must be true... Bam, a major logical fallacy: argumentum ad populum, more commonly known as "appeal to majority/popularity"

    I don't care if 99% of this board believes MO is wrong for any number of reasons. I will continue to MO while avoiding PMO. Just watch my sig counter rise.

    To any younger or new-comers to porn addiction: After beating addiction, do what works for you. Don't fear masturbation, and don't fear youself. I believe any guy can beat porn addiction and leave it behind them for good. ;)
  2. Roaring Tide

    Roaring Tide New Member

    Hi Hellborg,

    Just curious what your age is?
  3. Hellborg

    Hellborg New Member

    I will private message you my age. I have no interest in discussing my personal life or information when that is not the topic of discussion set forth by the OP. I hope you understand.
  4. Bazooka Joe

    Bazooka Joe New Member

    Conditioning stays with you when you do the same thing, even if there's a part missing.

    How is that bullshit.

    Pavlov prooved it for animals, Skinner prooved it for humans too.

    So, anecdotes about porn being unhealthy is evidence, anecdotes about MOing having the same effect is not evidence?

    Selective perception much?
    Older guys weren't wired to porn and masturbation combined from early on like young guys.

    And they didn't use it that much in the pre-internet era.

    As for the rest.
    Nofap_noobie likes this.
  5. Hellborg

    Hellborg New Member

    Very mature. I took the time to read posts by you and other members of the AFB, but you will not reciprocate.
    You just proved my assertion concerning the link between argumentum ad populum and the theories peddled by the AFB. You ignore opinions contrary to your own and set out to tell others what is "true" and what is not, because it is "science" (or evidence, psychology, whatever).

    My next question is, will this community eventually morph into the AFB? Will we go from a self-help board for porn addicts and ex-porn addicts to a cult of anti-masturbatory crusaders?
  6. Bazooka Joe

    Bazooka Joe New Member

    Dude, I don't even want to discuss this topic with you because you're ignorant.
    You call anecdotal evidence on porn addiction evidence, but anecdotal evidence on the bad effects of MO as a porn addict is Bullshit to you.

    Make up your mind if you want to believe in stories of others, then you should believe both,
    or you can get super scientific on here and only believe in controlled studies etc.

    But having a selective perception about what people report on here is immature from YOUR side.

    You seem to be the typical addicted wanker like others.

    Just ask Cid, he believed the same as you, he rebooted for months like this without progress, that taught him.

    You're 10 days in and you think you've all figured out?
    Your arrogance is pathetic.
    Nofap_noobie likes this.
  7. Bazooka Joe

    Bazooka Joe New Member

    And to defame noMOers as AntiFap Brigade or religious nutheads is also very immature.

    I am an atheist.
    I don't mention lust addiction, as I don't think this is an addiction but a wrong mindset at most.

    But for me it is a fact, because I've experienced it, that your post-orgasm hormone release is imbalanced and basically fucked up.
    Part of because your body adjusts and part of because conditioning keeps your body from returning to a balanced state.

    Orgasms have had a bad effect on me for quite a long time.
    It's a thing.
    Nofap_noobie likes this.
  8. ThatMathGuy

    ThatMathGuy Perseverance is the answer.

    I respect author's critical reasoning but I'd still be hesitant to consider MO even remotely beneficial (if it would turn out not to be hurtful). For this very reason I chose to abstain from it at this point of quitting PMO.
    Nofap_noobie likes this.
  9. ppycat

    ppycat Guest

    I agree with Bazooka Joe. Not sure if it matters or not, but I'm an atheist myself and have a 12 year history of PMO-ing. I think I've been through a lot of things to know what I'm saying.

    I managed to stay relatively porn-free for the past few months and it does help in certain ways, but masturbation is just as bad. I agree that the physical act of masturbating is not addictive and could prove to be healthy IF used the way it's intended, but who can just quit porn after years of heavy use and masturbate as a normal personal, once in a while, with no fantasy and gentle pressure? Nobody...

    Not to mention that it's not only porn. Due to the nature of how these things function, the "death grip syndrome" is also present. How many times didn't I force an orgasm seconds before someone would enter my room... How? By tensing my muscles, by applying a lot more pressure on the penis and by increasing the speed, among others. Do that for years at a time and the sensitivity of your penis drops to almost nothing. It used to be a pleasure just to touch my dick through my pants. Now I can get a blowjob without climaxing. Isn't that embarrassing?

    The thing is, not everyone will have the same (level of) symptoms, but masturbation doesn't help when trying to quit. It's linked to watching "exciting" material, so when the pleasure you get is too low or takes too long to come, you switch to aids. It doesn't need be porn, sexy images of friends on facebook have the same effect: conditioning your orgasm and pleasure to something artificial.

    My opinion is that if you really want to get things done, you need to stop them both for as long as possible. If at one point you will feel "normal" again, as I hope I will do one day, it is up to you to reintroduce these habits if you need them. Personally, I prefer working on my self esteem and social skills and do whatever my soul dictates (and sometimes the dick, he has a willpower of it's own ;D).
    Nofap_noobie likes this.
  10. Fapper3

    Fapper3 Guest

    Thank you Hellborg i found your thread interesting to read and not a TL/DR unlike so others who have the attention span of a Goldfish.

    I think once i reboot I will use MO (without porn or fantasy) only when I really need to.
  11. pimpski

    pimpski New Member

    I am pissed about how this forum is more like a battleground than a support group.
    But i am still hoping to get something out of this.
    Lets say MOing works.: How could it be done in a benifical way. I never learned how to pleasure myself without fantasy. When masturbating i come after a minute.
    How would a healthy MO routine look like. I would like to learn how to relate to my sexuality without guild and improve my live while doing it.
    Nofap_noobie likes this.
  12. herecticx

    herecticx New Member

    one question and answer honestly are you a virgin?
  13. herecticx

    herecticx New Member

    Well im pissed too because i have succesfully rewired and being shunned for masturbating without P. Like i said before my PIED, i was MO and still had a very healthy sex life. Only when P was introduced i started becoming detached and ED.

    How do i know that ive been rewired? i can have sex with a woman without going limp. I no longer crave porn. Whenever i MO i dont feel the same guilt as PMO. I get morning wood.

    Just dont understand how some members can preach if they've never had anything to compare to apart from their hand? so obviously they wouldnt know if they have successfully rewired or not since they have no past experience to compare to.

    We should embrace our sexualities not repress it. We are Sexual Beings.
  14. Bazooka Joe

    Bazooka Joe New Member

    Yes, and that is exactly my point.

    If you did not have sexual experience in your teens, MO is too interlinked with PMO instead of sex, and is just as harmful during reboot.
    Nofap_noobie likes this.
  15. ThatMathGuy

    ThatMathGuy Perseverance is the answer.

    Myself being a virgin I can admit that it's indeed a tricky point you're mentioning.

    Well a month ago I couldn't ejaculate to masturbation without porn. In fact I doubt I would've been able to finish to any picture (let alone fantasy) at all since I was used to exclusively anal videos. So I have a pretty clear vision of what an actual improvement might look like and what to expect from the reboot. Understandingly these concepts are not as solid as a real deal (i.e. an actual sex life).
  16. herecticx

    herecticx New Member

    Pardon my comments up until now. I agree in your circumstances refraining from MO too will be beneficial to your goals. Goodluck and all the best. I think this forum is still very young and believe sub groups should be formed since everyones case is different.
    Nofap_noobie likes this.
  17. Hellborg

    Hellborg New Member

    Well, isn't that convenient?

    I knew my counter would come up. Ad hominems usually come from people like you.
    I had actually beaten a porn addiction coupled with major depression quite a while back. After a several months I took to PMO again without any problems. I just decided that porn wasn't for me, since most of it was indeed disgusting and I had only used it to prop up a schizoid worldview, due to my depression. And so, I joined this forum simultaneously, hoping to seek likeminded inviduals. Instead, I met vitriolic virgins (no insult, since you did admit to it) like yourself.

    So sex is/was bad too?

    I am too. I only mentioned religion once: "The no-MO crap would be understandable if it came from guys with theo-spiritual reasons; or if they believed they lacked the willpower to MO without PMO. "

    I was saying that those people have subjective, understandable reasons for being against MO. You guys, however, need "science" and "evidence" to support your anti-MO ideology, for the reasons I mentioned already. Namely, you are insecure in your convictions.

    I'm glad I could help.
  18. the_lad

    the_lad No way I am wasting the next 15 years on PMO!

    I believe we should find what works for ourselves. This means trying and possibly failing, but getting back on our feet when we do.

    If you can't MO once in a while without escalating to PMO, then don't MO. Just don't do it! I guess this applies to the majority here who grew up with broadband P.

    If you can MO once in a while without escalating to PMO, then why not? I am actually trying this course, but I am not forcing my views upon anyone. Do what you think works for you.

    MO'ing every time you feel like it sounds like a recipe for disaster, but that's just my personal opinion. I am thinking once every five days or so, without any P fantasy, deathgrip or the like.
    Nofap_noobie likes this.
  19. Hellborg

    Hellborg New Member

    Well first, beat porn addiction, PIED, etc. before you MO. I cannot stress that enough.

    You can use fantasy, so long as it is about a real woman you met or fucked. Some people can masturbate while dreaming up an anonymous figure, but that's never worked for me. Try it, though. I just think this is a little risky, since an anonymous figure can easily morph into a big-breasted bimbo. To each his own.

    Another thing to remember is using "natural" masturbation techniques. If you need some sort of toy or strange texture to get off, you are not only numbing yourself but changing the way your penis responds to stimuli. Some lotion/lube and your hand should be plenty. If not, you are probably still in need of reboot, or you just aren't horny/aroused enough and should stop.

    And in most cases, your frequency of natural masturbation should be less than the PMO days. Your libido will wax and wane during the course of the year, so don't get down if you masturbate, say, 3 days a week at some point. In fact, that is average for the girls I've spoken to who were comfortable discussing masturbation with me. Many people do it more than that, and several do it less. The idea is not to coerce your penis into being stimulated because you are nervous, depressed, bored, or whatever. Let the sexual tension build up naturally, then have fun.
  20. hogus

    hogus Well-Known Member

    Name me one person on this forum who categorically states that MO needs to be completely avoided after rebooting due to reboot implications. Not from spiritual or personal life choices.

    Absolutely EVERY POST on the issue I've read on this forum when put in context states that it should be avoided for the reboot. I can totally understand how "you can't MO!" can mean you shouldn't MO forever when you ignore an OP that says "do I need to cut out MO on the reboot?"...

    Props for attempting to reason critically but there are just so many holes in what you've said.

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