Learning to be myself

Discussion in 'Ages 30-39' started by Thelongwayhome27, Sep 24, 2017.

  1. Johhny Bravo

    Johhny Bravo Every temptation is another chance of life revival


    The theory as follows.

    So when Gabor Mate explained ADHD is bar a mental 'protective defence' from a traumatic childhood, I intinsictivly knew this was accurate.

    For context, I do a lot of professional work in a mental health setting, and study PTSD. Specifically, I immerse in the field known as C-PTSD, which is "complex post traumatic stress disorder."

    To understand Gabor's theory, first let's distinguish between PTSD and CPTSD. Actually it's quite relevant because it does tie into pornography addiction somewhere somehow I am certain, I just cant make the link clear yet (and I can say that because I was a porn addict).

    PTSD is cinematically and culturally most seen on the war soldier battlefield scenario. A solider, releatvily psychologically stable, becomes adrenalized stress dumped by the sound of an explosion or mine going off; when he returns to 'normal life' anything that resembles a mine explosion, like a car beeping its horn unexpectedly, he becomes STRESS RIDDED INSTANTLY to an off-the-walls-extent, and probably wont be able to sleep the rest of that day because his adrenaline has shocked him up. Sadly, I am sure some of his friends would also ridicule him if they didn't know him to be a war soldier, "why you so worked up over a car horn lunatic??"

    Someone who doesn't have PTSD, sure, they may be jolted by a car horn, but here is the difference:
    - a normal person will calm down within 5-60 minutes after that.
    - someone with PTSD, well, they wont calm down possibly for days after that in totality.

    So what is so particular about this thing called C-PTSD? What is the difference?

    I will actually stick to the army example because its relatable. Have you seen Full Metal Jacket? Yes is the war scenes at the second half of the film, but what is the first segment of the movie all about? Basic bootcamp training.

    Bootcamp training, there is the character Piledriver. He begins the training as a humble, loose, easy human with a heart of gold. He doesn't understand or comply consciously with the training as much as the other soldiers do.....

    …..and then towards the end of the training, he is a 'fit solider'...or is he? His heart and psychology are destroyed. All his trust in all of his fellow soldiers is dead because they broke his trust and destroyed his heart, as the cruel drill instructor (firm but fair?). He can assemble a weapon lightning fast, his fitness goes up, he is disciplined and of so called good correct soldier psychology now.....But notice his personality is now different. And in the end he turns the rifle on himself.

    Piledriver was the result of C-PTSD.

    C-PTSD is where someone goes through relatively abnormal multiple series of adrenaline dumps over a course of weeks and months. C-PTSD is more prevalent in children, yes, children, because of terror and cruel parents or parenting startegies. The threat of violence (notice not violence, but the THREAT of violence), occasional slaps on the head, unfairnesses, changing of parental rules all the time, maybe rapid changes of parents (mother has a new boyfriend), sibling unfairnesses......

    So C-PTSD is where a person has the symptoms of PTSD, although the 'triggers' are more complex and abnormal. Let's say youre now a 30 year old adult, and you can get a full on PTSD flashback style adrenaline dump that lasts for 3 days just based on the look a girl or authority figure projected person can give you. Yes. The adult can be terrorised and riddled for days of stress just based on a facial expression that maybe resembled the facial expression his mother gave him before a beating

    So PTSD is once off,
    C-PTSD is multiple dumps of adrenaline, over a long term period where the person has no means to escape.

    So, to bring it back to Gabor Mate,

    ADHD is a protective defensive respond towards a C-PTSD environment. Notice what ADHD is- aalways on the lookout for threat and stimulation, inability to focus (because the brain is always non-safe and looking for any potential threats around), huge dumps of so called 'energy' which is really just massive loads of adrenaline in the blood that cannot be dispelled (imagine you are in the classroom. Oh Johhny can never focus on his math because he has too much energy. This isn't good. No, Johhny is just an adrenalized kid scared of whatever)...

    For more information, you can check out a heavy but fruitful text called "C-PTSD from surviving to Thriving" by Pete Walker. Link given at the bottom.

    My theory on porn addiction,

    Is that it is a self-induced 'relaxation tactic' against a highly dangerous environment. The child may be denied their sexuality due to shaming, but on top of that, because a child hopefully doesn't have access to any drugs or alcooho, they seek out an alternative measurement to calm their psychology down which is masturbating 5 times a day and they cannot stop.

    I don't blame the child. If they are so terrified of their mother and father or school or whatever, why wouldn't they watch porn? I sure as hell did and don't blame myself as a child doing their best to survive.

    So ADHD medication, and this is also Gabor's theory, is that it calms the brain down allowing the adult to function as a 'normal person.'

    I'm sure if you sat down Pete Walker and Gabor, they would both come to the agreement that there isn't much difference between ADHD and C-PTSD. Gabor believes a whole ton of the population has ADHD, but because they haven't been diagnosed or not aware they have ADHD, they resort to alcohol or other drugs to relax.....Gabor is an incredibly well versed and compassionate guy who says the entire module for drug treatment and the reason people become addicts is not because they are immoral people or idiots, no, they are just trying to feel some love because they were so deprived of it in childhood or as an adult.

    Imagine Piledriver and the jelly donut scene. When you are treated so horribly, fuck I'd be having 10 jelly donuts or day. Or pass me some codeine.

    I had a very traumatic childhood.

    The more I re-parented myself and my Inner Child, eventually, the need to watch porn lowered.

    Yes I used hypnosis and I said in my Jedi post that I was trying to become a new person. The more accurate truth is that I was re-training my brain to be a human of respect, dignity and pride when I was so deprived of any of those things in my childhood.

    Do not become another person. Be yourself, just add in FUCKLOADS of self-love, compassion and respect.

    Yes diagnosed as ADHD as an adult (after discovering Gabor), and I tell you I don't need or desire to take my ADHD medication as much compared to years ago where I would just get porn, drugs, booze- whatever was available to feel 'normal.'

    Existence needs you, I do believe in a universal love, but you have to access it yourself. And if ADHD medication or porn helps you calm down, well, I cant shame you because I understand the context and background the person is coming from. I cant judge any drug addict now because I understand.

    Heavy post, I know, but this is the truth.

    Bless you all and if you read the book, read it lightly and don't get too sucked into the darkness or overwhelmed by it. Our culture and history is ridden with child abuse, but our job now is to re-parent ourselves and be the love and light we never received so we can have a carefree, happy, fruitful, beautiful life.

    I have a girlfriend now who loves me so much. But I was my own Inner Loving Mother and Father first.
  2. Ereignis

    Ereignis Active Member

    For me, PMO pushed me away from people and helped me procrastinate about pursuing my goals in life. When I really quit, I would have to confront all those things.
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  3. Thelongwayhome27

    Thelongwayhome27 Well-Known Member

    My day was all right yesterday. I had some fantasies (was triggered a few times ; once by a woman on the TV another time by a YT thumbnail) but did not go for a PMO.

    I had moments of anxiety and boredom but not as bad as the day before.

    I still felt, especially in the first part of the day, the sense of humbleness and "openheartedness" that I reached the night prior.

    I like the feeling and I think it's a good one but I also think it's as they say on RN nation, using recovery as an emotional coping tool. Once I hit rock bottom I want to recover and it gives me some peace. The key is to use this at the beginning and then find other kind of motivation without hitting a new rock bottom.

    The fitness class I went to in the evening did me good. Socially I was all right and chatted with some people. I wasn't overly self conscious and I didn't think of the PMO binge the day prior. I also had a run and a workout before the class and I guess all the physical activity is doing my body and mind good.

    I couldn't sleep at night and I decided to MO. I have not MO'ed (without P) since may 2018 (looking at my excel spreadsheet).

    I tried to do the touch only MO and it worked pretty well but my mind did go towards some fetish fantasies a few times. I came back to the sensation though. Finally I allowed myself to go for some very regular fantasy, some realistic stuff. The whole thing lasted about 10 mins. The O felt quite good, a lot better then the O of the PMO the day before (the edging is where I get the pleasure I think when I PMO). It reminded me of the Os I had before the PMOs. They were more intense and physical. It also reminded me of real sex more. Something I miss a lot. Hopefully I'll get some again sometime. With a girl I like and likes me back. Still have hope.

    After the MO I managed to fall asleep. No shame today. No regret for losing a streak since ... I was on Day 1 ...

    Today some more cravings so far and ideas to go PMO. Is last night's MO a factor ? Who knows. I could have had these cravings anyways. Like I did yesterday before the MO. Or like I could have cravings on day whatever of a hard mode streak.

    It seems I have been going in circles lately but I think I'm also learning more about myself. I really do think that for those that have addictive personalities and seem to enter a purge & relapse cycle (as opposed to those that break free more directly) they can work on not feeling so much shame and negative emotions when they relapse (very very hard to do, especially after a long effort, perhaps even impossible?). But yeah I don't know I have this intuition that learning how to handle lapses in a good way is an important step.

    @Living - Yeah it's very true I should not beat myself up if I have problems and other people on this planet have "even less". But it can be positive I guess if such information is put in the right perspective. A way to re-frame my own troubles. But yea, who's to judge who suffers more. I also agree with what you say about the MO. I've often thought an MO approach for me would be good. I do tend though to get on a black or white thinking when I get on a "streak".

    @Ereignis - Makes sense. Maybe subconsciously the shame acts as a way for me to put off being myself with others. I then create a problem I need to work on before I can go connect with others as myself. It's a good point. I think my main root problem is fear. More then PMO and addictions. I have strong fear to be myself around others. Strong fear of rejection. Always end up trying to manipulate people's impressions of me. Even if I'm turning in circles a bit, I think I am becoming more and more aware of this, of how I do it. Maybe I can work from here. Problem with Porn is that it offers me a way to medicate, become numb, and then do nothing. And it also tends to increase the problems gradually. But if I remove the porn but don't tackle the fear I will still be stuck. And the fear will guide me back to addiction.

    @Johhny Bravo - Awesome post and very informative. Thank for sharing all of this. I've herd about C-PTSD before and thought I have this. I herd it, among other things, from "spartan coach" (an Australian online coach with interesting articles and videos). It all made a lot of sense to me. I often get in toxic relations with others, I let them walk over me more then normal (it can be subtle or not so subtle), I don't know how to put up boundaries, because this is how I was treated as a kid. For me this is normal. And doing it differently feels wrong. Thankfully I seem to be more and more conscious of it as I get older and I let people walk over me less. I'll miss your presence on this forum.
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  4. Thelongwayhome27

    Thelongwayhome27 Well-Known Member

    Feeling a little over excited and it's uncomfortable. I can feel how this energy, which at first seems positive, can lead to feelings of depression after a bit.

    When I think I am making progress I get, often, a bit overwhelemed with too much hope. Problem is this hope leads me back to a place of exerting to much control on things, of forcing things rather then going with the flow in a more peaceful way.

    With over-excitement comes a kind of fear. But maybe it's also just my anxiety. And best thing I can do is allow it to be. See that I'm not going crazy.

    I managed to not PMO yesterday. I didn't MO either. I had thoughts of doing both, at certain times of the day. The evening in particular was a bit tricky, because I didn't plan anything and was alone at home.

    I wrote a long post on here, and it over excited me. In a way it made me sleep less well.

    Although I think the post isn't bad, there is a "hypo manic" quality to it.

    I prefer the posts where I feel very calm when I write them.

    Yesterday I finally contacted my old therapist. I'm gonna see if he has some availabilities soon. Contacting my therapist, or contacting a therapist is something I have been putting off in the last month. It's good I finally did it. I want to try to dig deeper then the previous therapies I've had.

    This evening I have something social planned out, social mixed with sports so that's a good combo :)

    Perhaps this is also part of why I'm a bit restless right now.

    And the fact that I have slept about 6 hours for the past 3 nights.

    Again and again - sleep is such a good tool for a person like me. When I sleep well I help my body be balanced.

    Yesterday - while I was jogging - I came to think that even if I have moments of pretty dark despair (again, maybe it's anxiety more then anything and I'm just not recognizing it as such), I have slips with bad habits that seem "dark", "compulsive" - well despite this, overall I've made improvements. I think I got more serious on working on my life when I turned 27. Even before I was trying, but it was more "relaxed" - and the good path efforts were shorter. After 27 I got more serious - and I think I did manage to get more balanced. It something that is easy to forget. We forget that things could be worst - that a more troubled version of me could have happened. This shouldn't mean I can get complacent but that it's important also to be grateful of where I am right now.

    Once again, I'm happy that Wednesday, after the P binge I wrote about on here I did not proceed with my next craving of getting weed. I think I would have been high for the last 3 days. Instead I'm here, over excited but awake and sober. And I am interacting with individuals and done some social stuff. If I was on the weed I would have isolated or if I gone to the social stuff it would have been out of sheer obligation and as a "to do", with the idea of let's get it done soon so I can go back home and smoke. So good choice I made last Wednesday (pat on the back lol). But there is more work to do. But take it easy though.
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  5. Thelongwayhome27

    Thelongwayhome27 Well-Known Member

    Feeling calmer now (evening) then the over excitement of my mind I felt for a large part of the day (it really was going quite fast earlier). I think part of it was the anxiety of the social thing I had planned in the later part of the afternoon. I had some apprehensions about how it would go. It went all right but there is an "itch", I feel some kind of disappointment or sadness now. I guess I'm also pretty tired which can explain it.

    I think the sadness is a little related to this feeling I have right now which ressembles a doubt. I'm doubting if I'm really making progress or not. A part of me is thinking that I'm writing these posts on here (like the one from last night) which talk of self love and the theory of how to heal - as if I really know it - but then when I go on with my "real life" (the practice, not the theory) - it's not all that simple, it's not all that easy. I get this nagging uncomfortable feeling that what if I'm just in denial while I'm not advancing ? At it's harshest this "voice" tells me all I'm writing on here may be complete BS. But I think this may actually be my inner critic.

    Without going into to many concrete details, this social event I went to today I kind of went out of my comfort zone. And it was tiring. At the end I felt a bit dizzy. Since I'm not "perfect" socially, I get these emotions as now. But ideally I should see that I'm taking steps out of the comfort zone instead of feeling down or disappointed. As usual I automatically worry a lot about what peopre think of me, the impressions I made, if I made a wrong move here or there, if I looked bad or weak - all this need to look good, to be liked, special (is this all because of a fragile ego ?)... The need for popularity. Vanity ? These worries and preoccupations often follow me when I get home, going over all the stuff, the scenes, having flashbacks (like a trance). I guess I have to accept it. Be mindful of it, when I catch it disconnect and so on. But mostly accepting this is part of my mental processes at the moment (hopefully if I build more self esteem and confidence such a process will decrease).

    I'm also a bit confused with all the effort to improve myself. I literally think about my problems all day sometimes. Almost like an obsession. As if I would be my own therapist, always working overtime, in the background. But this in itself becomes a problem. A kind of ''craziness'', of "alienation". And it makes me very self centered, preoccupied with the "me". When the solution also seems to be to be less focused on one's own problems, less self centered, self focused. More attuned to the world. (The "spiritual" solution).

    Saw this movie recently that has to do with Addiction (alcoholism in this case) called Don't worry, he won't get far on foot. At one point, one guy that is supposed to be quite wise and advanced in his recovery tells another that "the path to enlightenment is to know yourself". The other guy asks "And how do I know myself?". And the wise mentor replies "Forget yourself".

    I think, in my case - and in regards to this quote from the movie - I am too absorbed by my own world (and problems) - I am closed off from others (I like the metaphor that "my heart is closed") and yet ... I am also a "nice guy people pleaser" who needs to learn how to be more assertive (a more psychological solution). This makes me question which exactly should I address first ?

    I'll be in a better position when I'll be more giving and open in the genuine sense - less egocentric - yet less of an approval seeking nice guy.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
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  6. Professor Chaos

    Professor Chaos Active Member

    I know what you mean. I re-read some of my old journals from years ago and they are full of ‘shoulda’ ‘woulda’ ‘coulda’ ‘better’.

    That’s why I’ve found Buddhist meditation so enlightening. It’s about learning to calm down the mind, to find some peace, to find some stillness. To be happy as I am and where I am.

    The only way I can compare is like that line from the Matrix,

    Neo: What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?
    Morpheus: No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to.

    Consider this then.
    “Analysis is paralysis”

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  7. -Luke-

    -Luke- Well-Known Member

    Was that something you experienced even before you found YBOP and YBR? Or is that a relatively new feeling? Before I found out about porn addiction I didn't really care about my future and about my life. When I found out I wanted to improve my life. I started reading more (including self help books), learning more, building positive habits, I started to care about my future and life in general. So my life improved dramatically in some areas since 2012/2013. But at the same time I've become more self critical, I overthink stuff, I'm more obsessed like you describe it and I feel more shame when I do something "wrong". Maybe we've gone too far in the other direction. Don't get me wrong, I don't regret anything I did in the last 6-7 years. I care about my life now. But perhaps I just think too much about it all now.

    It's all about balance. That why this forum is called Your Brain Rebalanced. It's about more then quitting porn.
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  8. Thelongwayhome27

    Thelongwayhome27 Well-Known Member

    Feeling okay today and more rested. My mind seems a bit less overexcited (agitated) then the previous 2 days.

    The nagging "down and sad" feeling I had last night after coming back from the social event I talked about is now gone. Many of the social worries that were itching at me and making me feel a sense of sadness or disappointment don't bother me now. This shows how sometimes I need to accept the blues (last night) and remember they will pass. And that they can pass even without me resorting to numbing agents or behaviors. Especially petty social worries seem to pass with a bit of time distance.

    I am still feeling a bit over excited even if, like mentioned, I think I'm a bit more calm then the previous 2 days. But my mind still has moments when it starts going too fast and I can't really make it stop (happened earlier today a few times). I think the over excitement has also been generated by the writing on here. Constantly analyzing my feelings, trying to express them sincerely, and just the fact of sharing like this. Maybe there is also a social pressure that is added (and some of my ego coming into play). But I think this is something that I can get accustomed too (so it will decrease) and also there are, I think, benefits of sharing and it feels therapeutic. Since my last "binge" I feel like I've been using this place in a better way. I think it sure has helped me and I appreciate the responses and support I have gotten.

    Still not sleeping too well. Part of the agitation. Even if I go to sleep late, I wake up quite early. This morning though I was able to fall back asleep a few times and I think I got over 7 hours. Hopefully I can get some decent nights coming up. This alone should help my mind feel calmer, more balanced. Lack of sleep and coffee surely makes the mind more restless and hard to handle. Hence more anxiety.

    I have not PMOed or MOed today so far. Didn't have out of control urges. Had some thoughts to MO again though but I'll try to keep going a bit more. I am however already horny if I think about stuff I binged on last time.

    Gonna go spend some time with family the next few days, in fact leaving tonight. I'll try to spend a bit more time away from YBR as I think it has been part of the overexcitement (despite the good effects too), so a bit of a cooling break maybe will help. We'll see how I handle the family time. I'm going because my dad has asked me to help him with some stuff around the house and garden. My relationship with my dad is difficult, I have a lot of resentment and anger. We often get in conflict type of discussions. He can really trigger me and push my buttons. I have trouble putting up boundaries. On the other hand I can't say I don't love the man, quite the contrary - big time quite the contrary. It's just too bad our relationship is strained - mainly I have a belief that he's made mistakes and (try to forgive him) but problem is his current behavior is still difficult to take. I hope that things will be positive this time around and I'll be able to control my own emotions. It all starts from there. I can't control him, but I can control how I react. Good thing about going to visit family is that I should not PMO the next few days. Hopefully I won't come back filled with tension.

    As a final note I felt pretty open with people today (in a controlled way). Like I was in a general positive mood. I think a woman smiled at me when I was jogging and I passed her. I had looked at her a few times, as I was approaching, and she smiled. Maybe I'm not a monster after all :) It has been a beautiful summer day. I went to a fitness class and it went well. Both socially and physically. I came back feeling calmer then before I went.

    @Professor Chaos - Thanks for dropping by man. Yes it's a bit of a scary feeling. I'm scared that the more I try to "fix" things, the more things feel broken. But I think a lot of this is just anxiety. Objectively I've done improvements. But yes it's scary when the mind doesn't wanna stop rolling. It's like okay now let's just enjoy today, whatever is here, but the mind is like on autopilot. Lately, even during my mediation sittings my mind has been constantly on a dialogue of "what to do".

    I hear you with The Matrix quote. Maybe level 1 is acting mindlessly (pure reactive, subconscious) - then level 2 is realizing there are a lot of problems caused by the unconscious behavior hence we start using the mind to fix everything but the mind realizes not only it cannot really fix everything but that it is the very cause of most of the problems that happened in level 1 (the ego) - which leads to level 3 - letting go of the mind and relying on consciousness, on awareness, on mindfulness - realizing actually everything is okay and we can ease up without acting mindlessly. This is nothing original, I kind of got this from Eckhart Tolle. I'm in a bit of a hurry so maybe it's not very clearly explained.

    @-Luke- I think I have experienced this before YBOP but discovering YBOP/NoFap, I think, has intensified it. I've always had a sense that my life is "a mess" and needs to be "improved" but there was less of a sense of urgency back then. But yeah actually I started becoming quite unhappy at 14-15 and at around 18 I became more "mature" and started trying to fix stuff. But during my 20s I have been also very undisciplined and my addictions got stronger. My efforts were not constant. Even before YBOP I wanted to stop being compulsive sexually.

    YBOP though, and NoFap, has this way of making me too focused only on the P habit, and it's as if all my progress is only measured by this (which I think is an exaggeration).

    Also with aging, the sense of urgency is greater. At 27 I got a lot more "serious" on fixing things.

    This mindset though of I have to fix things seems legit. Problem is when it becomes so obsessive that it doesn't stop. As you say, balance is key.

    They say what you focus on expands ... so sure if we only focus on what's wrong it will feel like it's expanding. On the other hand, though, I really do think I've been lost since I was a teen (probably because of childhood stuff). I don't think all my problems are created simply because I think I have problems. Guess the balance is working calmly on fixing things while not letting it be an all pervasive obsession, somehow being able to enjoy what is present as well. Gratitude man ... Perhaps that's all that's truly needed.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
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  9. occams_razor

    occams_razor Well-Known Member

    Thanks a lot Johnny Bravo!
  10. Ereignis

    Ereignis Active Member

    I wish you luck on your new approach. How do you plan on measuring progress? With purely subjective means?
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  11. Thelongwayhome27

    Thelongwayhome27 Well-Known Member

    Thanks man. I feel like I've had a lot of setbacks lately in the objective sense - PMO binges, drinking more then necessary, wasting a lot of time, being generally depressed and apathetic - but I don't know something in me feels I've also gained some deeper understanding, some new found knowledge and understanding of myself. It's more "spiritual", feels "deeper" - stuff like how I often reject myself so subtly, how I am not honest with myself, how I am still too hard on myself - how automatically I slip back into patterns of self deception and hiding who I am (more then necessary) with other people. I feel the PMO is related to all this, I feel it's a symptom of my deeper psychological and emotional problems.

    So what I mean to say is that despite the last 2 months which have been messy, I am hopeful that maybe I've gained some new understanding and outlook that slowly I'll be able to transform into "material and objective" changes.

    Objectively I hope to achieve many days without P or other compulsive sexual acting out binges, but I rather not count a streak. Like I just wanna see it as a symptom of things falling into place. Sure I'll be happy if I can say I'm 2 months without an "episode" but I don't really wanna go with a day counting "reboot approach". Because for me I find this hinders me more then it helps.

    I also want to tackle the excessive alcohol more. I am still not sure if I should abstain completely or set a clear limit.

    If I refrain from : alcohol excess (i.e. - more then 3-4 drinks), any marijuana consumption (total abstinence here) and sexual compulsion (including P) - then these would be objective measurements of advancement.

    Then there are more subjective elements : more assertive (say no when I want and know how to do it gracefully), taking more risks showing who I really am (in the negotiation of being accepted in a group and being your true self, slowly lean more on the being my true self rather then excessive conformism in order to fit in and be accepted).

    Other clear objective measurements : Start dating, talking to girls more (platonic or not), making new relationships with different friends then my current acquaintances, become more solid financially, organize my appartement better, tackle other "to do's" that I keep putting off, Read more (good) self help literature. Getting a girlfriend ?

    Developing a friendship with a woman I like and likes me.
  12. Ereignis

    Ereignis Active Member

    I use a day counter app on my phone. There are a lot of simple free programs that do this. This way, if I ever stop counting and am curious, I just open the app and it tells me. This could be useful for you if you have any interest in how long you've been clean but don't want to count every day.
  13. Thelongwayhome27

    Thelongwayhome27 Well-Known Member

    Girl Issues

    I sometimes get angry at girls, in general, feel resentment. I know it's not the path out of my issues though. Whatever is must be accepted. Girls are a certain way (perhaps it's "society's fault") and that's it. One must learn to adapt and find the solution.

    I'm angry that I often feel they are cold, distant (I sound like the character from Taxi Driver). I guess they are just often shy and programmed that way.

    What angers me is the feminist cliché discourse where guy's are usually pigs, carry toxic masculinity and ... have it so easy. How guys have it all handed to them. I know I am caricaturing the "feminist discourse". But still ...

    My mating strategy seems to be to walk around, look at girls and hope they look back. And that's it. And then I often get dissapointed when they look away or not at all.

    I googled today "girls always look away".

    What sucks is that girls complain guys are too macho (with all this meToo stuff nowdays), they are all creeps, they are all "rapists" - but then nice gentle shy guys don't get ANY action, ANY attention.

    So basically girls kind of positively reward "macho behavior" - because they don't take the first step usually.

    Girls, very generally speaking, train guys to be go getters - and then they complain about "toxic macho rape culture".

    What sucks is that because I'm shy around girls I automatically write off a big portion of the girl pool. Why ? Because I can only get a girl who would do the first move or be "dominant". And who knows, maybe I would be a lot better, would fit so much better, with a "shy girl".

    Because I lack confidence and self esteem I'm super sensitive to rejection. I will panic, in the moment, and see many things as rejection (that maybe are not). So a girl who doesn't look at me, doesn't talk to me (even a girl I know) - I will take as rejection and as proof that she doesn't like me.

    Guess I need to build up my tolerance to rejection. Learn to show a girl I like that I like her.

    I have never been able to understand if girls look away cause I intimidate them or because I'm just unattractive to them.

    Sometimes I think I'm good looking. Other times, put me next to a guy who looks really good and is the alpha type and I feel like some peace of trash in the wind that should be hidden.

    @Ereignis - Thanks man. Well I use an excel sheet where I track pretty much all my sexual activity. I track other habits too in there but PMO is definitely one of them. I'll keep doing the spread sheet even if I don't "count the streak".
  14. Pete McVries

    Pete McVries Active Member

    Don't get stuck in these online clutter of gender war. How many girls have complained about your toxic macho rapist approach? None. Most girls don't like to be stared at or being observed for a long time because it sort of crosses their personal space. Like people who get way too close to you while talking. But when you talk to them, you actually communicate bidirectionally. Watching them, staring at them is unidirectional. They are being exposed to your gaze and they can't do much about it but ignore it. Often times, it's not a nice feeling. Do you enjoy being looked at for a long time by strangers? I don't... You don't need a permission from them to talk to them. Just go for it. Then, you also don't have too much time to think about what to say and freeze or so. I would always suggest to pursue a hobby or an activity where you can meet new people naturally. Meeting girls in clubs and bars is always so artifical in my opinion. I don't want to badmouth it per se but me personally, I hated it but I also thought it was a necessary evil to pick up girls. What a fallacy.

    Approaching is scary but it's also something that can be learned and I guess, the more comfortable you are with yourself, the more at peace you are with yourself the easier it gets. Flirting, in my opinion, is also a game of deception (I hope that's the right word, I don't mean it negatively). If you stare at a girl for a long time, she will know that you are interested in her and your deception is gone and she has a leg-up on you.

    Go talk to them and find out. The majority of girls are no cold blooded monsters.
    doanl, -Luke- and Thelongwayhome27 like this.
  15. Thelongwayhome27

    Thelongwayhome27 Well-Known Member

    Thanks for your feedback Pete.

    I totally agree. It's not solution oriented.

    I meant more like making short eye contact. I don't (think) I stare for long. But usually I will naturally make short eye contact with strangers as I pass them by because I don't know I feel like hey this is another human. This is another living being on this planet, why should I just walk by without even acknowledging they're presence ? It feels forced to not look at them. I think it's just normal curiosity. But I guess it can be awkward.

    I guess girls are just tired of most guys trying to make eye contact with them so they look ahead as if the other individual isn't there. Guess I should not take it personal and it's just my fragile ego.

    Another explanation is that some are shy.

    Yeah I really agree here as well. I am taking a fitness class these days where I can talk with my classmates and some are girls. It's already not to bad.

    I'm thinking to join a book club or something. I like reading so going there with something I actually like should help.

    Agreed again. Even me, a generally shy and inhibited guy, have felt how I can be different in the rare occasions I've felt comfortable socially or in a good mood. I become someone else and naturally and confidently I can then approach a girl in a better way.

    I don't like the idea of too much game of flirting and seduction. I prefer the idea of simply having the courage to show a girl you like her (without being desperate just in a balanced way) and then giving her the option to get to know you better if she is interested.

    Thanks for your take, once again :)
    Pete McVries likes this.
  16. Pete McVries

    Pete McVries Active Member

    I'm in the same boat. And it was a long learning process for me to just accept the fact that some people don't want to make the slightest contact with strangers they are passing by. For me, it's totally weird and unnatural but I guess that's just how some people are (not only women) and at the end of the day has nothing to do with me.

    Yeah, I guess as a man you can't fully comprehend it until you have walked in the shoes of a decent looking girl. Recently I've asked the woman I'm dating at the moment how it feels like and she said that sometimes it can be really scary. One night there was a guy in a club who was sort of stalking her, watching her from different angles, not being seen for a few minutes, popping up at another location watching her again. He even went so far as to sneak up behind her, stroking her arms. She got really paranoid and couldn't enjoy the night anymore and left the club with a few friends. Think about it. As a girl you are weaker than about 50% of the population. As a man you might get beaten up badly in a fist fight by other men on a night out but as a woman you might get raped, someone might put something in your drink, the consequences can be insane. I would prefer to get beaten up any day before getting raped. This is the worst case of course and by no means am I implying that the average man is a rapist but these people exist and it would be foolish not to watch yourself in that regard as an attractive woman. Also, to get beaten up, in most cases you have to play your part as well. With a cool head, a lot of times you can de-escalate such a situation. Personally, I've only been beaten up once and I can be a snot-nosed brat when being drunk so I count my blessings in that regard;). Good luck trying to de-escalate a situation where you face a possible rapist. If I should be the father of a daughter one day, she is going to learn jiu jitsu that's for sure. And I'm not implying you give off a rapist vibe, I think most attractive women just made it a habit "not to invite" everyone who is looking at them, showing signs of interest.

    You said it best, don't take it personally. They don't even know you why would their shallow opinion of you faze your ego? Also, it's fun to make resting bitch faces disappear ;). But you have to talk to them in order to do that.

    I don't know you personally and it is hard to judge someone from just words but to me you seem like a guy who hasn't found HIS spot yet. I mean, you are going out clubbing and stuff like that, that's not how I would define shy. It's symptomatic that you phrased "I become someone else" instead of "I become MYSELF". I'm sure that you contain natural confidence and charisma. You wrote about your "friends" with quotation marks a while ago. You also said that you get drunk in order to put up with them and that really made me think. Like you numb and intoxicate yourself in order to bear people you don't really like in the first place. That doesn't make any sense to me. And that's why I recommended you to do activities and go to places where you can meet like-minded people, where you don't have to numb yourself and do drugs in order to enjoy yourself and the people around you, and where you don't have to be anybody else but yourself in order to be accepted. Find your tribe!

    By no means am I a pick up artist and I'm also not the smoothest flirter on the planet even though I can be a slick bastard in the right mood. But there are certain patterns/rules/call it what you like when it comes to flirting and it is a bit like a game, isn't it? You don't want your game partner to know your hand from the beginning. And you describe the situation like you see an attractive girl in a bar or so. She doesn't know you, you don't know her. How can you decide that early if you like her or not? She might be dumb as a bucket of shrimp. And the same goes for her. That's what I meant with looking too long or staring. Acknowledge her attractiveness and then approach her in your method of choice. Then, you can communicate bidirectionally and both decide if you have sympathies for each other and progress from there.
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  17. Thelongwayhome27

    Thelongwayhome27 Well-Known Member

    @Pete McVries - Thanks man, I really appreciate the advice! :)

    Yeah makes sense. When I googled, yesterday "girls always look away" - I got some similar types of insights. Some were from girls. I guess it's a bit like tinder (I don't use it though) ... girls will be swiped a lot more then guys. Same thing here, a pretty girl walking around will be looked at by every guy she passes, well at least by most.

    It's either they are totally numb to it. Or they just don't wanna give you a chance to approach them (because perhaps cocky guys do this). And finally because actually some are just shy, especially more regular looking girls.

    And yes ... My ego ... my fragile ego ... is (over)identified with my body. I am ... looking for approval from random girls. I think that if they look at me it means I look good. And then I think that makes me a more valuable being. It's ego identification ...

    I may have a fragile ego because of past experiences ... but my fragile ego, nowadays, carries on a lot of my issues. Good thing is we can try to detach from our ego by becoming more mindful of how it works. :)

    Finally I have to add that I think I was perhaps exaggerating a bit saying I make eye contact with most people. I think I do this more then other people - if I pass on a solitary sidewalk I will feel it's just weird, rude, cold to totally ignore the other human. On the other hand ... I think I do it more with girls that are around my age range. I caught myself, yesterday, passing a few people without looking at them so I think my comment was slightly exaggerated yesterday.


    Considering your club story it makes sense !

    It suck you know. Because of these kind of guys - who go to far - girls are a lot more cold then they would be if not. It's kind of like how barriers are put in sport events because of the few people who would go crazy if they are not there.

    Then again, it's human nature to outreach. And people are who they are. Everyone has good and bad. Everyone is more or less lost. More or less found. I think many people do what they can with what they have.

    I think you really nailed it with the not having found my tribe yet. In any case, that's very much how I understand my social problem as well.

    It's nice to feel understood.

    I don't think friendships are necessarily about finding "perfect" soul mates, but rather finding decent and good enough people with whom we share a sufficient common basis and then build a friendship from there - by sharing moments, good times, stories, memories.

    But it's important to steer clear of people you actually don't have much in common with or that are simply not very nice persons. People who are to "nice", who are used to more manipulative relationships, who have less self esteem and also more of a need to find friendships will often, I think, make mistakes here by pursuing the "wrong friendships" here. Which is understandable but, sadly, still hurtful for them. I think this can be subtle, and in very bad cases, not even that subtle. It's sad...

    I believe that my exaggerated fear of rejection has often made me force relationships more then necessary (in order to fit in at any price).

    I think I was doing this on autopilot when I was a young teen - and I got in pretty unhealthy relationships (because my biggest fear was to be the outcast in school). Luckily, I've matured a bit and I do it to a lesser degree - but there are still subtle built in automatisms.

    I've also fostered some "friendships" on a common interest for vices such as drinking and getting "messed up" when there was not all that much else in common. This is a problem because they maintain my bad habits - and if I would stop said bad habit (drinking) what would such a relationship stand on ?

    The sad thing with molding your personality strongly in middle school & high school (in order to fit in) is that you truly kind of lose yourself - you don't discover who you really are. You're just always rejecting yourself in order to not be kicked out.

    So that kind of kicks in a vicious pattern : you don't discover who you are, therefore your relationships, if any, are unfulfilling and not nourishing (here comes the addictions) - and as a result you wake up in your 20s with no strong and helpful relationships and still not really knowing who you are. From there you're in a good situation to keep getting in unhealthy relationships (cause you are more "desperate" then the norm) - until you realize what is going on, what's the pattern underneath.

    And finally, healthy relationships are a part of the equation. The other is being comfortable solo. I think a good balance between these two is the key to and the result of psychological and emotional health.

    Anyways enough over analysis I guess.

    I thank you for your feedback good sir ! :)
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
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  18. Pete McVries

    Pete McVries Active Member

    I'm glad, I could be of some help. I recognize parts of your character in myself. Learned about friendship the hard way through betrayal and snakes in the gras. Nowadays, I prefer having a handful of close friends in contrast to having many shallow friendships. And I'm wary when it comes to larger cliques because there are always ties you can't see, hidden agendas, people who welcome you with open arms and stab you in the back later. People who pretend to be your friends but when you are in need they all of a sudden don't call back anymore. But once you are successful they come knocking on your door again. Nevertheless, I value true friendship a lot. And people change all the time, we never stay the same person. Therefore, I think it's natural that some friendships are not built to last. But that doesn't mean they were bad friendships per se. Sometimes people just grow apart. It is what it is. Therefore, I guess it's healthy not to make yourself dependent from other people. And the good news is, it is possible to make new friends every day. So, if you don't have any super close friends at the moment, or not enough for your liking, it's always possible to make some. And that's why I recommend you to do activites you like (I must sound like a broken record to you, I apologize...). When people share interests, they always have a great foundation for friendship. At least, that's my experience.

    By the way, have you read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert A. Glover? I think, it could be of tremendous help for you. The more I think of it, the way you describe certain things, you actually seem to have some traits of a "nice guy" (please don't feel judged) like pleasing people in order not be an outcast. Or estimating your self worth by the reaction of unknown girls. @Gilgamesh is a huge fan of this book, if I recall correctly, so he might have some insights in store for you (hope it was ok, to bring you into this dear Gil ;) ). I've also read the first 40-50 pages years ago but I couldn't recognize myself in the book, so I stopped reading it. Maybe, I need to pick it up again. There is a lot of great knowledge in it even for non-"nice guys".

    Take care!
    Thelongwayhome27 likes this.
  19. occams_razor

    occams_razor Well-Known Member

    I might have a tip for being less self-conscious around girls. Basically, be "present" in the moment, but also be thinking about something you're going to do later that you enjoy (a hobby or whatever). As well as decreasing social anxiety, I find this helps give off a good "vibe". You're comfortable in the moment, but you're also looking forward to the near future for some mysterious reason.

    Also remember that any thoughts you might get about what a girl thinks of you, are only thoughts. Whether they're good or bad, you don't know for sure because you're not a mind-reader.
    Thelongwayhome27 likes this.
  20. Gil79

    Gil79 Seize the day

    :DNo worries. Interesting conversation, as always in this thread. NMMNG really applies to me. Not much time to elaborate on this, but definitely it is a very insightful book about men-women relationships in general, even if you are not the typical nice guy.
    Thelongwayhome27 likes this.

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