L-Carnatine as libido reset button

Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by YellowMinion, Jun 17, 2015.

  1. YellowMinion

    YellowMinion Member

    Sorry this is a lot of information for one little thing:

    Starting here under "Quit Jacking off To Internet Porn" http://anabolicmen.com/how-to-increase-androgen-receptors/
    "Masturbation to the point of sexual exhaustion has been seen in multiple studies to block androgen receptors so that only estrogen can enter them. One study even found out that it may take up to 15 days for that receptor to return into its normal state. (more here with links to studies.)

    Needless to say that if you have been a keen masturbator for your whole life (like most guys are) then you probably don’t even know what it feels like when your androgen receptors function properly."


    Which leads to this: http://anabolicmen.com/how-internet-porn-makes-you-less-of-a-man/
    See "Porn Reduces Testosterone and Androgen Receptor activity"

    With that in mind, let's assume all of that is accurate. Throughout some research lately I learned more about amino acids, vitamins, and hormones. This led me to one particular amino acid, L-Carnatine which is talked about in "how to increase androgen receptors." Except in this article he talks about Acetyl-L-Carnitine, which is the wrong form of L-Carnatine. What you want is PLCAR or LCLT.

    ALCAR - Acetyl-L-Carnitine - Helps the brain with memory and mental clarity. This is not the kind you want for this purpose (although wouldn't be bad to take in addition anyway.)
    LCLT - L-Carnatine L-tartrate - Basically plain L-Carnatine that's not as bioavailable in this form. The body needs to convert it to to use it.
    PLCAR - A more bioavailable form which helps your androgen receptors where it matters, sexual function.

    PLCAR is patented and therefore more expensive, so I also got LCLT because it's cheap and I've read that it's also good for sexual function. I actaully have found conflicting claims. So basically I took both, the LCLT to supplement my PLCAR use.

    At bed time, I took the following:
    50mg of DHEA - Prehormone to testosterone production
    4000IU of Vitamin D3 - Vitamin D3 is an aromatase blocker. Aromatase is the enzyme that converts testosterone to estrogen in men.
    5000mg of creatine - Creatine is one of many things that should help support testosterone production.
    1500mg of PLCAR + 1500mg of LCLT (to total 3g of L-Carnatine.)

    This is in addition to my morning vitamins/suppliments of: Multivitamin (GNC MegaMan Sport,) 2000IU of D3, 1000IU B-12, Fish Oil for Omega-3, 1000mcg of chromium picolinate, 25mg additional zinc + 2mg additional copper (addition to what's in the multi.) *Note, that 6000IU of D3 per day total. The upper safe limit is about 40,000IU per week.
    I also take about 3000mg of L-Arginine daily (at least lately) which helps maintain erections.

    Result: Initial day I had reduced libido (may have been nothing but coincidence.) By day 3 I was very very horny and had trouble keeping my erection down.

    Why? I speculate that the the L-Carnatine may have gotten in there and unblocked/reset androgen receptors possibly taken over by estrogen as well as increased receptors. All of my bioavalable testosterone bound to those receptors lowering my free Testosterone initially (I read that you can have a temporary drop, initially.) With Estrogen blocking and increased testosterone production, my free testosterone eventually came back up and was able to affect androgen receptors in my sexual areas. End result, testosterone binding with androgen receptors the way they should.

    I dunno, it's completely a theory. I guess I'm just putting this out there for guys that are struggling with libido or erection problems as maybe something to try. I did this experiment coming out of 2 months of using flaxseed oil for Omega 3-6-9 and suffering libido problems. Even Cialis wasn't working and I got really freaked out. One day I read that Flaxseed has 3X more phytoestrogens than soy and I realized that maybe I had been flooding my body with phytoestrogens, thus taking over all of my androgen receptors with estrogen killing my buzz. I'm not even sure that all of the phytoestrogens in flaxseed makes it into the oil, but my performance seemed to directly correlate with use of it. I since switched to fish oil. I need Omega-3 for dry eyes.

    I got my PLCAR on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005IHO9V6
    I got my LCLT at PipingRock.com http://www.pipingrock.com/l-carnitine/l-carnitine-500-mg-3762
    D3 I got at Costco. Creatine and DHEA I got at GNC.
    You really don't need the DHEA, especially if you're young, or Creatine (not even sure creatine does anything.) I'm over 40 so my DHEA levels are probably already lower.

    If you want to do this, just give LCLT or PLCAR (and nothing else in particular) a shot for 5 days and see if it helps. Either that or do a little Google research on it and see if you think it'll help.
    D3 is cheap and is supposed to naturally lower estrogen (though I don't know how much) so I don't think it hurts to take for a few days. I do about 6000IU and I've read that as high as 10,000IU per day has no known side effects.
    Either way make sure you're getting your daily vitamins so you're not deficient somewhere else.
    You can also read this (for example) on maintaining testosterone levels: http://www.poliquingroup.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/934/Five_Simple_Ways_to_Raise_Testosterone_Levels_for_.aspx

    Anyone else ever tried L-Carnatine?
    Am I experiencing nothing but a placebo?
     
  2. YellowMinion

    YellowMinion Member

    Re: L-Carnatine as libido reset button?

    As a follow up, I ordered a re-supply of Propionyl-L-Carnitine
    http://www.pipingrock.com/l-carnitine/gplc-glycocarn-propionyl-l-carnitine-hcl-with-coq10-40295
    I thought I read somewhere that someone said that "Propionyl L-Carnitine" is not the same as "glycine propionyl-L-carnitine HCl" (I don't know if they were referring to the glycine part or the HCL part.) Either way I don't really understand how as both contain "propionyl-L-carnitine." We'll see. This one is a lot cheaper so if it works as well, I'm sticking with it. I'll have to get it, try it, and see how it goes.

    I had taken a break from using this and I'm back to my 3rd night in a row taking it. My sexual appetite is pretty strong and I get spontaneous erections which is kind of unfortunate, actually. I have also taken some ArginMax, but I don't think that alone is doing it as I have similar results without it. ArginMax is just an added boost in performance for when it comes time with the woman.

    I'm not sure this is the kind of thing you want to experiment with if you're trying to abstain, obviously, as it's going to tease the hell out of you and you'll cave and fap or pull up the porn. Literally everything is a trigger to me right now and I'd be lost if I didn't have a willing wife. That being said my wife seems to be welcome the attention (though I worry that I may overstay that welcome :) if I don't cool it.)

    However, if you're in a flatline and/or want to try to have sex with a woman, this could be a help to jumpstart your libido.
    I'm going to experiment with this on and off for a few days at a time for a while and try to report back to see if results are consistent. I also want to see if the piping rock GPLC is as effective since it's cheaper. I've been really happy with PipingRock's supplements and prices so far.
     
  3. YellowMinion

    YellowMinion Member

    Just a follow-up because I hate to leave this information out there without resolution.
    I never did settle fully on which L-Carnatine is best. Also I wanted to work on Acetylcholine and one of those suppliments is ALCAR http://blog.lifeextension.com/2011/10/how-to-naturally-enhance-libido-through.html
    So I just ended up taking all 3
    ALCAR - Acetyl-L-Carnitine
    LCLT - L-Carnatine L-tartrate
    PLCAR (aka GPCL at pipingrock.com) - Propionyl-L-carnitine Hcl

    This isn't something that I would do ongoing. I did it for about 3 days then stopped. I backed off on all supplements for a few days except for vitamins and libido really came in strong after a few days.
    It's worth a shot.
     
  4. Nickd247

    Nickd247 porn gave me a limp noodle too, Gabe haha

    sorry man but i highly doubt a supplement or even a drug is ever going to cure or even "reset" someones libido. dont get me wrong you can have a successful sexual experience, but you may end up relying on that substance if you do not fix the problem yourself along the way. save your money dude, that stuffs not worth it. proper reboot plus rewire. maybe a touch of cialis to bring your Performance anxiety down to a minimum
     
  5. YellowMinion

    YellowMinion Member

    You're probably right.

    I didn't mean to imply that you can shortcut reboot with drugs or supplements, that you shouldn't reboot, or do anything different in terms of recovering from PIED (without the supplements.) The purpose of my bringing this up is that many men here have gone through long reboot cycles, have no libido, and are in an very extended period of flat-line with seemingly no end in sight. Some guys have gone 3 years and seem to have made no progress.
    Many guys are at the point of desperation looking for anything to get their mojo back. If that was me I'd certainly be looking for something to help.

    If you read the first sentences on http://www.anabolicmen.com/how-to-increase-androgen-receptors/
    "Masturbation to the point of sexual exhaustion has been seen in multiple studies to block androgen receptors so that only estrogen can enter them. One study even found out that it may take up to 15 days for that receptor to return into its normal state. (more here with links to studies.)"

    If you've gone 6 months or a year into a reboot without PMO, then if what is above is true then those androgen receptors have long returned to a normal state, but it's also possible that you androgen receptors are far from in best shape. I've taken ALCAR along with no PMO, and my orgasms (really sex with a woman) are far more intense and my general libido is stronger. It's hard to say how much of that is simply no MO and how much is the help of taking these amino acids or even something else.

    Probably more important that focusing on L-Carnatine are some other things:
    http://blog.lifeextension.com/2011/10/how-to-naturally-enhance-libido-through.html
    Notably the first two sections: Restore Sex Drive with Dopamine, and Boost Sexual Arousal with Acetylcholine (note ALCAR is in this list.)
    Taking amino acids L-tyrosine and L-phenylalanine along with Crhomium and B1 will probably go further to help restore dopamine in a chronic PMOer. Acetyl-L-carnitine is going to help with arousal.

    By no means do I want to encourage wasting money or taking shortcuts or bad advice. I've just read about a lot of this stuff on other forums and it seems to help. This stuff is relatively cheap and safe to take.

    In any case, do you as you will. I just put this out there as a suggestion to those in desperation as to something to look into.
     
  6. Choice-R-Us

    Choice-R-Us New Member

    Checked for the studies. The site links to four studies in "Porn Reduces Testosterone and Androgen Receptor activity", three are with rats, one is with apes. The site directly transfers the findings to humans, which is, um, bad science.
     
  7. pilj

    pilj Guest

    very interesting and original. I will give it a shot soon. We focus too much on dopamine where a 3 days 1g of tyrosine should fix a case of PIED any time.
     
  8. JerseyJay911

    JerseyJay911 New Member

    YellowMinion,

    I have been contemplating buying Carnitine for a few weeks now, but have been put off by the price. But seeing the positive reviews, I think I will go ahead and buy it.
    My question to you is which is the best Carnitine in your opinion? Best in terms of restoring androgen receptors?
     
  9. YellowMinion

    YellowMinion Member

    I think this kind of sums it up:
    http://www.life-enhancement.com/magazine/article/1702-carnitines-better-than-testosterone-for-impotence
    The answer is, both ALCAR and GPCL (referred to as ACL and PCL in the article.)

    Both have their benefits and while I think GPCL is going to target the tissues related to sexual function better but it appears you're better off with both. I take both when I take them.

    Piping-rock has good prices: http://www.pipingrock.com/l-carnitine
    I would get both "Acetyl L-Carnatine and "GPLC with CoQ10" and take both. You cover the bases and you know you're not missing out on anything.

    I'm not sure if it has helped my libido overall, but I think it has. I took them for about a month then stopped (I don't like to take breaks from supplements.) Especially after I stopped taking them, my libido has been pretty healthy (normal I suppose) and my orgasms have been pretty intense (when having real sex with a woman.) It's honestly hard to say how much of this is due to my change in behavior (no porn, no MO, and orgasms only during real sex which is less than once a week, sometimes less) but these days 4-5 months after starting my recovery things are pretty good and normal for me, but I was never in very bad shape to begin with.

    Sometimes I also take it for a 4-5 days when I know I have no chance of having sex because initially it can reduce libido by using up all of your free testosterone, then I stop taking everything a day or two before before trying to have sex in hopes that my body chemistry and libido is normal (or better.) Also I'll take it if I have a relapse with PMO hoping it'll help undo the damage.

    I honestly have no idea what I'm doing, only what I read and interpret, but it just seems like it doesn't hurt to try which is the whole reason I started this thread.

    If you read this in time, Pipingrock is having a sale on Acetyl L-Carnitine for $7 which goes for another 7-8 hours. Standard shipping is pretty slow so it takes almost 2 weeks for me to get orders that way but the prices are good.
    Keep an eye on pipingrock as they have sales frequently.
     
  10. BailHope

    BailHope New Member

    Hello,

    I was wondering at what age you started taking these? I'm 28 myself, and I've hit a flatline in my recovery and I'm willing to try anything. I'm pretty sure I won't relapse, because staying away from porn was never a problem to begin with. But now I'm flatlining.

    And at what point did you start taking the supplements? How long were you rebooting? And how bad were your porn induced sexual dysfunctions?
     
  11. YellowMinion

    YellowMinion Member

    Well, in my case I was 4 months in and I wasn't really flat-lining when I started taking the stuff. I've always had sex on average once a week (sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less) and sometimes with ED drugs (though I don't know if they were totally necessary.) After taking L-carnatine for about 3 weeks I had sex after a 2 week stretch of no sex/no masturbation and had a remarkably intense orgasm unlike anything I'd felt in 10 years. That may also be related to other supplements I was taking, but I think L-carnitine might have played a role there.

    I'm starting to backpedal on my belief that this stuff improve libido. I don't think it really does per-se. I think it does improve you overall sexual function by restoring, clearing, and improving androgen receptors (call it maintenance,) but for libido there appears to be better supplements. The reason it piqued my interest in the first place was this which I admit is a bit speculative:
    http://www.anabolicmen.com/how-to-increase-androgen-receptors/
    "Masturbation to the point of sexual exhaustion has been seen in multiple studies to block androgen receptors so that only estrogen can enter them. One study even found out that it may take up to 15 days for that receptor to return into its normal state. (more here with links to studies.)
    Needless to say that if you have been a keen masturbator for your whole life (like most guys are) then you probably don’t even know what it feels like when your androgen receptors function properly.
    So instead of jacking of to some dopamine receptor desensitizing internet porn (that’s what internet porn does, it blocks dopamine receptors), build up that sexual energy and have sex with a real person, just like real men do."

    What we really need is something that helps with dopamine which l-tyrosine l-phenylalanine do. Do your homework on those regarding searching with "libido" and "depletion" to understand them and don't use them for prolonged periods. But I read that some guys take l-tyrosine and get horny.

    For improving actual libido, I've pretty much landed on herbal supplements. Aphrodisiacs essentially. I would recommend first trying any product with horny goat weed in it like the "horny goat weed complex" (note it has a combination of things) http://www.pipingrock.com/horny-goat-weed will most likely make you horny, even if you're flat-lining. I'm curious why more guys don't try this kind of thing if they have a woman they can be with (otherwise it'll just make you want to masturbate.) There are other products on that link that might work even better for ED.

    Maca helps with hormone balance and has a mild aphrodisiac quality to it.
    This guy says Catuaba Complex from Vitacost supports a healthy libido for him. I'm interested in trying it, perhaps.

    Right now I'm trying HGW complex (one morning, one evening) and Maca for a few days and it's got me pretty wound up today. I'm really hoping my wife is up for it. :)
    I did this because I was just feeling sort of flat-line-ish (I had 0 libido) and on Sunday almost couldn't have sex (until she worked her magic in conjunction with my having taken cialis.) I should note that I had a porn relapse the previous Friday that I blame for destroying my libido. I'm very angry about that because I was doing so well. So I decided I was going to do 1 week experiments with my collection of supplements and see how each does.

    Lastly, I had 24 days in September of no porn, no masturbation, no sex. By about 7 days my libido dropped to 0 (basically flatline) which is why it wasn't that hard to get through this dry spell. While doing that I decided to try taking all 3 L-carnatines for about 10 days then stopped. By the time I had sex with her I had no problem rising the occasion, had an intense orgasm, but I also only lasted about 2 minutes. I'm not used to Premature E but I guess a combination of 0 stimulus, 0 sex, and POSSIBLY the L-caritine helped have me on a hair-trigger when it came time.

    So I don't know if l-carnitine is in fact doing ANYTHING, but I believe it may help clean up the androgen receptors so that you're operating normally and it's worth trying for maybe two weeks. I don't think it hurts. I also don't think it's something you need to keep taking. Just do it for a couple of weeks to do it's job then stop and see how it goes. With any luck your androgen receptors are in a better state for going forward.

    Also, I've added chromium pollinate to my daily vitamins. It's supposed to help with with seratonin, dopamine, and reduce sugar cravings.

    I don't know if I answered the question but those are my ideas for helping to work with a flatline or low libido. Nothing works better for me than the HGW complex.
     
  12. Complex

    Complex Member

    Good hearing from you again YellowMinion, we talked a few months back on

    http://www.yourbrainrebalanced.com/index.php?topic=30423.msg487212#msg487212..

    I appreciate your replys. Like you say all this stuff could be placebo. But some things i read sound legitimate and may help people. Even if you don't feel the effects when taking supplements, you could always think of the internal benefits people.

    You say look into l-tyrosine and l-phenylalanine for dopamine. Ive ran a course of Rhodiola and occasionally take it now. I don't think I've felt much different on it. It gave my brain fuel but thats about it.

    Do you think i should try a different brand and try fixing dopamine?

    The reason i ask this is because i have a dopamine problem. How i know this is when smoke weed i get anxious and nervous. Never happened before reboot. Could it be my brain warning me that its already screwed and it don't any more disruption than it already has.? As weed affects dopamine. However its a good indicator that I'm still not fixed and I'm going to use weed from time to time to see does my symptoms improve over time.

    I think once i started my reboot my brain got seriously disrupted from stopping all masturbation and porn which gave me withdrawals. My brain was used to getting its fix. So its like a bomb went off and everything is all over the place and gradually my body and mind is fixing/replacing the damage.

    Long amounts of time from PMO has fixed most of my problems so i know just need even more time. Maybe certain supplements could help me out though ?.

    Another reason of how fucked my dopamine receptors were is that i used to constantly get sick, get horrible comedowns from drugs (more than others), lazy , unmotivated.
    While I'm still lazy and unmotivated lol. I barely ever get sick and if i do its only minor , lasts no more than 2 days and can still work. And comedowns from drugs are nothing compared to what it was last year.

    - - - -

    That horny goat weed sounds good i might give it a try one day. Ginseng definitely gives a small kick but increased that tingly sensation i used to get downstairs and gave wet dreams so i stopped.
     
  13. wilder

    wilder Member

    I've found that combinations of Horny Goat Weed + Maca + L-Arginine are pretty nice during the reboot, especially the L-Arginine + Maca combo. I haven't exactly had sex since I started my reboot but while on the L-Arginine + Maca combo I have gotten pretty hard with girls before.

    You should do some research on L-Arginine (@Complex). There are some studies which suggest taking a few grams a day helped alleviate ED in a decent portion of men, after ~6-8 weeks of use. I've been much more horny this reboot than in the past (even if it's just 90%); and I think a large part of that is due to taking vitamins like the three I mentioned above.

    And yes (@YellowMinion), I agree with you that HGW will certainly help with making someone horny - even while in the flatline. From what I've read online it's pretty much a mini Viagra/Cialis because it helps with inhibiting activity of PDE5 which is exactly what they do.

    I'm interesting in looking into l-tyrosine and l-phenylalaline now.. hmm..
     
  14. BailHope

    BailHope New Member

    Hey everyone,

    I've been looking into some forms of supplements for a few days, been reading up on the effects of the different supplements which are available. I keep coming back to maca and horny goat weed and l-carritine.

    I might best describe my situation a bit before going on :
    I don't have a porn addiction. I've been clean of porn for three months and don't have a single urge / trigger to go back to it. But I'm still flatlining. Something is wrong, and even with total abstention from masturbation, my body does not seem to be recovering. I feel something else is wrong and am backed up in this by the three doctors I've visited. I'm physically, mentally and hormonally healthy. And yet, I have next to no libido.
    I've been looking into the androgen receptors. It seems very viable that they are somehow blocked. Because my problems aren't just sexual. I've spent the last few months in the gym, working out three times per week. I ride my bike every day for two hours. I do a lot of sport. And yet, when you look at me, I'm skinny. There appear to be no muscles forming at all. Seeing as muscle growth is also governed by androgen receptors, I'm beginning to really look into these as a possible problem.

    But, since I don't have a girlfriend, and don't want to become an avid masturbator again, I'm not looking to raise my libido. Just do a cleanup of my body and its androgen receptors and see what happens.

    Am I right in assuming that in this case, I would need only L-Carnatine to clear my androgen receptors and restore them to their function?
     
  15. JerseyJay911

    JerseyJay911 New Member

    Hi guys,

    I was binging all last week. My dopamine receptors must have all been toast. And yet, today (4 days later), I woke up with hard morning wood. Here's what might have helped. I took 2 gram of L-Carnitine Tartrate daily, zinc every other day, and also 2 capsules of DHA (a component of fish oil) daily.
    I can't guarantee this combination will work for everyone, but it worked for me. A quick Google search will reveal that LCT and DHA are proven to increase dopamine receptors. The only downside to all this sexual energy is that it makes me quite horny. I was careless today, and binged. Too much of a good thing I supposed.. Back to square one for me :-\

    With regards to Tyrosine/Phenylalanine, Gary has stated that taking these supplements will do nothing for us porn addicts because our brains are not low on dopamine. On the other hand, it's the dopamine receptors that are low, and all our dopamine is just sitting there idle not doing anything because it doesn't have enough receptors to bind to. So giving yourself more dopamine will not help recovery.
    This is his analogy:
    He doesn't mention any supplements to increase dopamine receptors (apart from rest and meditation). But using Google, I learned that dopamine receptors can be quick restored through supplements like LCT, Uridine, DHA, and doing intermittent fasting, etc. I would combine them together for best results.
     
  16. Complex

    Complex Member

    I never thought of it that way. Ill look into dopamine receptors. I have supplemented with acetyl l - carnitine.. I'm guessing thats for receptors ?.

    Im gonna look into it because your right if the receptors aren't its useless.

    You say us porn addicts aren't low on dopamine. But remember that others can have low dopamine due to medications, drugs and other reasons. Theres no harm supplementing with 500mg of L-tyrosine every now and again.
    I would recommend everyone to do both ways.

    And dude how long are u into reboot? i wouldn't try enhance libido until you're sure you can handle urges. Its a waste when you just masturbate it away and it not doing you any good. atleast you know it works for you so you know it can help with sex.

    Thanks for the advice, I'm having dopamine problems.
     
  17. JerseyJay911

    JerseyJay911 New Member

    Yes, I'm sure all the Carnitine forms help with increasing dopamine receptors. I chose LCT because LCT is in a salt form (due to its tartrate molecule), which gives it the best absorption. However, ALCAR crosses the blood-brain barrier, so maybe that makes up for the difference? Again, I'm not sure. I had taken LCT a couple years ago, and noticed no negative side effects. So for me, lct was a no-brainer. But yes, I think ALCAR will help with increasing receptors too. Its also dirt cheap.

    I was quoting Gary when I said porn addicts aren't low on dopamine. He's a trustworthy source because he runs this site and he knows more about this topic than you and I combined.

    Gary wasn't speaking for low dopamine due to medications, drugs, and other reasons. He was talking simply about porn. I'm not against tyrosine either (I have taken it myself). All I'm saying is that perhaps there may be better alternatives to consider for this purpose. Maybe in your case, tyrosine is what's needed, but you have to make that decision.

    I want to increase my dopamine receptors but I'm not trying to enhance libido (mine is naturally somewhat high). Greater libido is a result of more D2 receptors. But for me, being horny is a bad side effect because it distracts me from my daily functions and I have poor urge control. Just fyi, there are many other reasons to increase D2 receptors apart from libido. But you are correct in that the gains go to waste when you just masturbate it away.
     
  18. Complex

    Complex Member

    have you heard about CDP-Choline? its meant to be great. for receptor density. Inositol pops up a lot too.

    Im gonna give it a try at some point.

    Its weird because everyone at the beginning wants a real high libido. but once they get it can come very distracting and annoying. My problem is not appreciating anything.
     
  19. JerseyJay911

    JerseyJay911 New Member

    I used to take CDP Choline when I was taking nootropics, but that was in the past. As you mention, the issue for me is not even restoring D2 receptors but rather resisting urges. If there is some supplement that erases urges, I would be very interested. But I don't think that exists. If there was some pill that suppressed urges, then there would be no need for this forum ::)
     
  20. BailHope

    BailHope New Member

    I just had a question about this: in the original post you state that Acetyl L-Carnitine is the wrong form of Carnitine, and yet a few posts later you say it helps with arousal, which is kind of the point, is it not?

    Could you explain for me if it is the right kind of Carnitine, or not for getting out of a flatline and getting those androgen receptors back on track?
    (Or point me to some valid articles: I've been Googling a bit for them, but haven't found much that's useful)

    Thanks a lot!
     

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