It's about how hard you can GET HIT and KEEP MOVING FORWARD

Discussion in 'Ages 30-39' started by EFS White, Apr 5, 2013.

  1. EFS White

    EFS White Member


    The fact that I have to come in for mid-day updates tells me a lot about my state...

    I've spend all day so far reading contracts and comparing production partners for one of my original productions. Fine print sucks, and all of these offers are really hard to compare. Anyway, I just recognized that it feels like I am going in circles, I feel very much frustrated and am craving some instant gratification. Curiously, I do not feel any real urges directly for PMO; what I do feel yet again is a deep-rooted sadness, loneliness, and desire for intimacy / romance / belonging.

    In the back of my head I am also dwelling on a thought: Two weeks ago my attractive colleague, of all people, invited me to join a new creative group, and I am pretty sure there will be a meeting tonight. Yet I am not sure how to feel about this, and I don't feel like texting her about it. On the one hand I know I should back off and not see her any more than I have to — for I know I must not allow myself to develop a crush on her — on the other hand this new group is also a great opportunity to meet new people (incl. new women), expand my social contacts and network. It was actually very friendly of my colleague to invite me, too, so I feel that the reasons in favor of attending outweigh any reasons I have for the contrary.

    I just need to be aware that this fuels a somewhat lingering anticipation cycle within me, and the very real danger of feeling unsatisfied afterwards.

    Anyway. I'll have another good HIIT workout coming up in about two hours, that should do the trick.

    Back to work.
  2. a short guy

    a short guy Well-Known Member

    Perhaps staying intensely focused on really socializing, meeting other women, with an enthusiastic, upbeat, "let's make this fun" attitude and focus on that it may defuse your over interest in her. Enjoy yourself.
  3. Canada2012

    Canada2012 Active Member

    I figure mid-day posts mean high risk of relapse right?

    I know how life's vicissitudes can lead us to relapse. I'm glad you made it to 2 weeks. good job!

    From the little I know of you, I was expecting the colleague to come back time and again in your posts. I guess she's like a ticking bomb near the headquarters, which you seem to be handling well. I can add my 2 cents about your last post. I think it peculiar that she now invited you to a group outside of work as well. I am simply speaking from my meagre experience with women, that they rarely start building up a spontaneous relationship with a bachelor when married themselves.

    That's it. Stay strong EFS!
  4. Hello Penis My Old Friend

    Hello Penis My Old Friend Well-Known Member

    I think it's a good idea to go with that mindset, too.
  5. EFS White

    EFS White Member

    Thank you for checking in.

    @A Tall Guy
    Funny, I am reading your message now but I ended up doing exactly as you had suggested. I agree, I think that was the right way to go.

    Thank you for expanding my vocabulary, always good to learn new words ("vicissitudes").

    I am not sure I understood, however, what you meant with this comment:

    Maybe I offered too little info: While I am referring to that woman as a "colleague", we are not usually working together. We are part of a creative group and usually meet about once to twice a month. She has now invited me to join another creative group she's in, but it seems this was not an invitation exclusively to myself but to other creatives of our original group as well. Secondly, she is not married, however, she has been in a serious, long-term relationship for several years.

    So yeah, I assume I find it "peculiar" of her as well, but my porn brain was trying to make it into something that meant she wanted to see me more often and get something started, which I'm not so sure that was or is the case. Let me wrap this up for now by saying: In all honesty from the way she and I interact and like each other I would assume that if she were not in a relationship she would go out with me, and probably date me. So I would not be surprised at all if the same thoughts are going through her head that are going through mine, only that she is actually invested in those thoughts as opposed to me, meaning she has something to loose: Is a sense of attraction to someone worth exploring, if it means endangering a (perfectly good?) long-standing relationship?


    14 DAYS

    Yeah, just something magical about that two week mark. Last couple of days have been tricky, all the more I am glad to look back on 14 clean days now.

    As a note to myself I am still not convinced of an indefinite day count, and I know that subsconsciously I am telling myself that "14 days sober is good enough". I must admit this to myself in order to deal with its implications and flag it as relapse potential. Another mechanism that I haven't given much attention to is that some relapses seem to have happened not out of a misguided coping mechanism but actually out of feeling good, sensual and joyful, kind of like ordering a pricey meal just because you are having a good time. Recently I have focused intensely on the relapses that happen as a reaction to negative feelings; I should just remain aware that there is this other kind as well.

    Other than that, it's the same old: Potential for work frustration remains acutely high, I am lonely, no social plans for today, will be on the computer for hours today etc.


    I want to give myself some credit for going to that new creative group last night. It's always a big step for me to get out of the house and meet a new group of people, and I know, being lonely and sad about it, this is what I need to do: networking, meeting new people, socializing, planning to do things. Funny enough, my colleague was sick and didn't show up, so I could have spared myself about an hour of thinking about whether or not I should go there. The group meets bi-weekly but they are all about getting out of the house and doing and attending cultural and creative events so that seems really cool, and just what I need.


    Just want to spell out one more thing to myself:

    I must make myself aware that I do not have an actual crush on this colleague woman. What happens is that inside, abstractly I get this feeling for what I want — a partner, a beautiful, cheerful woman and a loving relationship — and then when I meet someone on the outside who seems to play into that promise I get attached very easily. However, what I actually get attached to is the promise itself not necessarily the person on the outside. That person on the outside just seems to be the best option for fulfilling that promise at a given time.

    Not sure this makes sense to anyone, but understanding this is crucial for me right now.


    Make it a good, clean day!
  6. TruettW

    TruettW Active Member

    You've got a nice reboot in your hands. Pay attention and be careful! Day 14 brings back memories. I've often relapsed on that very day, probably because of the psychological effect of realizing that two weeks are almost complete. I've even had a couple of back-to-back relapses on that day, relapsing on day 14, then going again and relapsing again on what would have been day 14! But you went through that barrier, great!

    You should not be ashamed about your feelings, or try suppress them. It's better to admit things. Even if nothing is changing right at the moment. Honesty toward ourselves is necessary, I doubt if there would be lasting recovery without it.
  7. Canada2012

    Canada2012 Active Member

    Thanks for your constant efforts to clarify my sometimes confused ramblings.

    My comment was to the effect that, in my own personal experience and it is very very incomplete, a woman in a couple often tends to shy away from entertaining joints activities with single guys where there is a potential for a relationship. In my personal view, 'marriage' and 'couple with engagement' is a distinction without a difference. So, what I mean is that I interpret her double invitation (common project and common creative class) as a possible manifestation of her interest.

    I of course have a very very limited amount of info. What I hope for you is what you wish for. If she is someone you are interested in, then I wish this is a mutual attraction that will resolve in a desired way. I don't want to trigger any expectations or anything however... tell me if I do plz.
  8. EFS White

    EFS White Member

    Truett, yes, there is some psychological trap associated with the 14 days for me. I'm sure it's from the things I've read a long time ago of how serum testosterone levels bounce back after an ejaculation; I mean these 14 days have to come from somewhere. It's not good, of course, but it's "comforting" to know that you experience a similar thing. Question remains: Why these 14 days? And how do we deal with it?

    Canada, thank you for clarifying! I do recognize we were thinking very similarly: My interpretation was, "hey, wait a minute, she's in a steady relationship, yet she proposes to work together with me and asks me to join another group together? She must want the D." I'm going to be frank about my boyish fantasies here and say: if it only were so!, that would be a teenage dream come true. In reality, however, I do not know what to make of all of it. Maybe she wasn't thinking about this at all, as her brain is (probably) not as sex and porn infested as mine. Or maybe she was thinking along those very lines but realized that this means playing with fire, and she herself is not sure how far she wants to take this.

    I do want to make note that the "only thing" that's making all of this difficult is me not knowing whether I truly want her. I desire her, yes. But am I willing to challenge her current relationship for a fling? For an affair? For finding out whether or not we are a thing? Like I said, I have met her boyfriend and he seems a nice guy, plus he's on a career path that will set him up for a much better income situation than I can dream of. I am certain of my emotional and spiritual qualities, I know that I am a lover; yet I can offer little in terms of financial security and future outlook. These are big issues for me. The point is: If I absolutely KNEW that I wanted to get with her and that I were the better match for her etc, I would just tell her and challenge her relationship and let the chips fall where they may, not giving a fuck who might get hurt. But I would feel horrible if I sabotaged what she has, seduce her to a possibly short-lived affair only to find out we're not destined for anything together.


    15 DAYS

    I have kept clean for 15 days. That is great. Yet I feel shaky about writing this down here. The last few days the challenge has upped the ante, and ironically I feel I have done poorly these last couple of days, while I damn well know that those were the most crucial and actually the best rebooting-wise.

    Ever since yesterday, so 14 days in, I am suddenly having very strong compulsions to look at porn. I understand this is somewhat of a 1) dead-end effect after working with my colleague and not seeing this going anywhere; but also I think it is due to 2) frustration at work, and related to that 3) hypofrontality kicking in.

    In all I have had about six moments yesterday when I was on the absolutely verge of looking for pornographic content. I understand I was triggered by several links I had been recommended by friends that contained pseudo-funny porn-themed content (what is it with this porn-themed soccer content, anyway? Does anyone think that's funny??!).

    I did very well yesterday by just shutting off the computer and going for a walk, then chose to watch soccer instead of giving in. Rather to bore than to deplore.


    So urges remain damn high and I know my subsconscious is somewhat okay with having gone beyond 14 days clean. What can I do to stay clean? Why do I want to stay clean?

    My goal is to grow into a man whose conduct and healthy habits leave no room for masturbation or pornography. It comes down to the mastery of my internal energies and to entraining new habits and routines that completely overwrite old, misguided coping mechanisms. Therefore I must remain vigilant, hour by hour and minute by minute, of even minute reactions, desires and compulsions within myself and devise healthy, self-affirming ways to deal with them.

    In practice I must keep in mind that if urges appear I must not give them the slightest room; if they prove to be persistent, I must put a distance between me and the computer. I shall recall to enter and entrain a state of play mentality, to destress and relax.


  9. Canada2012

    Canada2012 Active Member

    The stronger the drive the greater the victory. Don't look at porn.

    Glad we're on the same wavelength about colleague-girl. I am wary of engaging you too much. The reason is I don't want to say stuff that is not true and I have little knowledge of this type of situation I've never been in. It certainly seems you are giving some thought yourself and maybe the point would be to make up an action plan ahead (if she does A I'll do X, if she does Y I'll do B ectect) and not dwell too much on this.
  10. darkwolf

    darkwolf New Member

    You sound very psychologically prepared. That's good. I respect that. I wish we could all cover up our collective blind spots, but in my experience all I've found that seems to work consistently is to keep a kind of flexibility inside which is anchored by my strong wish not to relapse. Not to simply clench my fists and eyes and shut out these annoying, unwanted impulses, but to actually see them and remind myself and those impulses that I have a greater goal and I can outsmart them by doing something useful and kind toward myself in the moment.

    Food, sleep, calling a friend or family member, reading a book, taking a walk...many different things can be used in the moment if I just let go of my body's fantasizing.

    I wish you luck with this challenge!
  11. EFS White

    EFS White Member

    Thank you guys for checking in, and thanks for your good wishes! I'm only checking in briefly... in order to avoid stupidity...

    16 DAYS

    Four more hours of DANGER ZONE. Say three, because I'll go for a workout (and I will be covered in the evening as I am meeting a friend). I am careful not to say out loud that I am very grateful for 16 clean days... because I am more than knee-deep in the realms of relapse. I had a very cool interaction with a girl friend last night, not sexual at all just very fun and inspiring, and I can feel how I am chasing after that feeling today.

    As I have identified for myself PMO is my coping mechanism when I have attained a sexual charge (actually met two woman yesterday whom I desired sexually) but cannot find a healthy way of acting it out. Now I just texted my attractive colleague and invited her to go to an exhibition together next week. Not sure if that was smart or stupid, not sure how she will react to it — but I figured it's better for me to seek contact to woman in real life than turn to fantasy or worse: pixel-fucking.

    Difficulty is back to 8/10, all day I have been mere seconds away from saying "fuck it" and just surfing some porn. Also, I cannot really get away from the computer today, as I have work to do.

    To make things just a little worse, I noticed my mind turning on me, starting the same old, oh come on, it's been more than two weeks, you did so well, what's the harm, just this once...

    I suppose my subconscious is testing my resolve. And I know that resolve is not very solid right now.



    If I want to say I DON'T WANT TO RELAPSE TODAY then I need to make the effort to actually spell out whether that is true and WHY I DON'T WANT RELAPSE TODAY.

    • I want to be better than that (porn, masturbation, PMOing)
    • I want to grow beyond the need for instant gratification
    • I want to experience feminity holistically and not reduce women to their physical appeal
    • I want to be the best man I can be, a strong, adult male with integrity
    • in order to find a sexually and psychologically healthy partner I want to become myself sexually and psychologically healthy
    • PMO is a short-lived addictive pleasure, misguided and unhealthy
    • I want to learn to be in control of my impulses not have my impulses control me
    • "addiction" to pornography means surrendinger myself to it, giving pornography and masturbation dominion over me — I will not be dominated!
    • in order to entrain better new coping mechanisms I must use these better coping mechanisms... not ocassionally turn to the old ones

    Back to work.
  12. Hello Penis My Old Friend

    Hello Penis My Old Friend Well-Known Member

    Hang Tight EFS. That's a cracking list of reasons not to relapse.
  13. Canada2012

    Canada2012 Active Member

    A little exercice for you,

    How did the fun & inspiring interaction with a real person leave you? High-spirited and energized or shamed and drained?
    Think about it for 10 seconds.

    Now how dis your last PMO session leave you? High-spirited and energized or shamed and drained?
    Think about it for 10 seconds.

    That's it. ;)
  14. TruettW

    TruettW Active Member

    You should go to battle stations! When someone mentions that there is the threat of a relapse, the situation is often worse than the rebooter thought. A relapse doesn't always happen in such an occasion. Sometimes the ship passes the iceberg, enshrouded in fog and darkness, and the Captain never even knew how close disaster was. But sometimes the iceberg is sighted when it's dead ahead, and a collision cannot be avoided. So I would suggest that you slow down and keep your eyes open!
  15. EFS White

    EFS White Member

    HPMOF, that list did come out very well indeed. I read it over and I was like, damn right, I'm not relapsing today!

    Canada, thank you for the exercise suggestions. I am not sure whether this is a sign of healing or fucked-up-ness but my last PMO session was a great dopamine high and I didn't feel shame about it, hardly experienced cravings afterwards and noticed, if at all, a slight drain of energy on my next workout. Now of course I know where you are coming from, and I agree: The porn high doesn't compare at all to the healthy satisfaction of interacting with other people (or in this case: women). One is a shrill illusion, the other is real connection and interaction. I believe the danger in thinking about this matter for me lies in the thought that one PMO session doesn't cause that much harm. Which is probably true, it doesn't. Not by itself. But we all know just how addictive this shit is, and if we allow ourselves to indulge twice a month, it soon becomes twice a week,... and before we know it we are back to twice a day. I am not going there again, absolutely not. It is pathetic and pointless. Thank you for prompting these reflections!

    Truett, that is exactly the situation I am wary of: to unwittingly come so close that a collision can no longer be avoided. This is exactly what I set out to anticipate this time around, and I realize that the last three days this chess game is moving into subconscious realms — or "under water" as you might put it. Addiction is a sneaky bastard. But then I just got back from a tough workout, and I suppose that is my "battle station". Works like a charm. :)


    I just wanted to check in and thank you for your comments. Now that I am here, one quick thought I took note of today...

    I started feeling a strong compulsion for PMO today and questioned myself where it came from. Assuming it was horniness residue from last night's (non-sexual) social interactions and my ongoing attraction for a colleague of mine I asked myself this question: If PMO is a misguided coping mechanism, what exactly would be the healthy way to cope with the situation at hand?

    This question gave me an immediate answer:

    If I enjoyed last night with this girl friend of mine and would like to continue interacting, I should totally PMO now ... I should just write her an email.
    If I feel attracted to my colleague, even accepting that she is in a relationship, I should totally PMO now ... why don't I do like she did and just ask her to join me for a social event.

    The compulsion to PMO is an automatism that I have entrained for many years. The reason for this automatic compulsion towards PMO is that for a long time (while still married) I never allowed myself to act upon impulses of attraction (including sexual and non-sexual alike). I still plague myself a lot with thoughts of "oh, if she has a boyfriend I am not suppose to interact with her"; literally even for girls who are friends I display this kind of recessive / repressive behavior.

    What I realized was that as soon as I had written my girl friend, this didn't create any urges any more. As soon as I had texted my colleague and suggested to go out, I felt relieved — because I knew I had acted on the impulse without resorting to the PMO automatism.

    Off for dinner with a friend now. Will have a great evening! :)
  16. darkwolf

    darkwolf New Member

    Sounds like one hell of a realization you had there. Excellent work!
  17. Hello Penis My Old Friend

    Hello Penis My Old Friend Well-Known Member

    I agree with DW that you seem to have hit a nail on the head, there, and something resonated with me.

    There have been many times in the past where I have been horny and thought about texting some girl, or flirting on FB... doing something to actually get with a women, but instead, I divert that energy in to PMO. What happens as soon as I O? The desire I had to seek out a real woman is no longer there: the idea of texting seems pointless, a chance to flirt on FB or over a drink no longer excites, and I just stay in instead.
  18. TruettW

    TruettW Active Member

    I try to keep in mind that I have options. When it has gotten bad, usually around day six and over the weekend, I've just seen one option: PMO. Yesterday, for instance, I had already pinpointed that I was in a dangerous state, one that has been often followed by a relapse. I had several options. Take a walk, for instance. There are countless simple options like that, even as I only needed one. Take a walk. That's it. I can be lazy and overconfident. I can think, I can handle this. But that's living in a dreamland, when we observe the facts. So the next time I'll make a point to myself for taking that walk even if it's stormy outside. To walk for three hours in the rain is preferrable to relapsing, then going for several days in mental torment before it starts to get better...
  19. EFS White

    EFS White Member

    Thanks guys, for checking in and doing this journey together. I appreciate your comments. I thought some more about what I had written and the explanation of the process is not quite honest yet. I think a crucial part that I had left out is this:

    1) I feel like spending time with a woman,
    2) but I start thinking about how she has a boyfriend and how it might be inappropriate for me to write her,
    3) so I should totally PMO now ... find a healthy way to deal with this.

    Step 2 is crucial because that is where I impose limits on my natural attraction. This other girl friend of mine I had written about is in a relationship as well, and somehow I feel like a dirtbag asking her to go out for coffee or spending time with her because I feel it may come across like my trying to hit on her and her boyfriend might get mad or whatever. So headgames keeping me from acting according to how I want to act. Inhibiting the expression of myself.

    This brings me to your comment, Truett. Yes, I believe it is important for us to realize when we enter into an automatism and misguided coping mechanism, and to remind ourselves that we have options (up to a certain point... which is when resistance becomes futile). However, I believe more and more that we need to keep in mind that PMO is a coping mechanismit does help us to cope (however poorly and with side effects) with a distinct situation, e.g. sexual desire — and therefore whatever alternative behavior we chose in order to be effective should offer us a healthy way to deal with this same situation. Hence talking a walk is a distraction — and certainly heaps better than PMO — but it is not an empowering solution.

    Often enough the alternative I chose is hardship in the form of exercise, and I believe this is great because it entrains that whenever I desire instant gratification I chose hardship instead (which is set to upregulate and rebalance your dopamine receptors in order to unhook you from cheap thrills). So this is great in a way but of course it doesn't help me adress the fundamental need for connection, socializing or intimacy.

    I believe the very reason why the aforementioned process had worked so well for me last time was because the alternatives I had chosen were exactly in line with my need: I wanted to keep in touch with this girl friend of mine (need for connection), I skipped the headgames of why I shouldn't write her, then I did NOT PMO but instead wrote her an email. I wanted to arrange to spend time with this colleague of mine (need for connection, desire for intimacy), then skipped the headgames about what her boyfriend may think or all the reasons why I shouldn't write her, then I did NOT PMO but instead invited her to go to an exhibition with me. I still always get this automatism that it's inappropriate for me to communicate with women who are in a relationship. But the truth is I am not trying to seduce them and I am not even secretly hoping for sex — I thoroughly enjoy their company, and only if I spell out an invitation THEY CAN DECIDE whether they want to spend time with me OR NOT. A rejection may not be fun, but I know it's what I need to expose myself to a lot more. This is real life.

    That is exactly what I do not do when chosing porn — allow for the possibility of rejection. And to be fair I got really lucky because my girl friend responded right away with a really cool and deep and thoughtful email, and my colleague, much to my surprise, cancelled her plans for monday in order to join me for the exhibition. In other words I risked rejection and was perfectly fine with it — but I also got lucky that I wasn't rejected, for I know that would have made it harder. The long-term goal of course needs to be to become immune to rejection and just act in accordance with how we feel (and this requires us in stride to unhook from porn in order to make sure that it is not the addiction telling us what to do).


    I wasn't even going to write much, but now that I am here...

    18 DAYS

    Today is good, I went for a really bad ass workout this morning and will busy myself with work in the afternoon and watch soccer with my dad later.

    Yesterday I came awefully close to a relapse as I wanted to check in and this site was offline for a couple of hours. That was very tricky, because thinking about constructive ways to beat this addiction and exchange thoughts with you guys is one of my healthy coping mechanisms — as this was suddenly removed I felt a sense of panic ("panic" is much too strong of a word here but I assume you can understand what I mean) ... but luckily soccer was on all evening so I did fine.

    My only concern is that while I feel fine right now I might get a little more nervous about seeing my attractive colleague tomorrow. So far I have kept all head games contained, did not experience any indecent fantasies of her... but I guess on some level my subconscious is nervous about what it means to see her, what it may mean that she had agreed to join me etc. Over-thinking is a disease of the mind just as well, so I will cut that out and affirm myself in knowing that I invited her with the best gentlemanly and friendly intentions.

    Thankful I have work today. Thankful to have social plans tomorrow. Want to stay clean! Cheers!
  20. TruettW

    TruettW Active Member

    The best coping method I know is writing here. We can let it out by telling about it, whatever the frustration is. Also, in the process, the mind is concentrated on coming up with words and sentences, and so the urges are pushed back. There are many times when I've felt like merde, but after writing here, I've sensed that a lot of my pain and frustration have gone away.

    Uphold gentlemanly ways and thoughts with the colleague!

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