I want to be careful here. There are some on the site who for religious reasons believe in NoFap. There are many others who believe that M to O is very likely to lead back to PMO, and indeed have experienced that, But as I understand it the point of the site is to reboot so as to rebalance the brain, and we all agree on that. it seems to me that it is a matter for individuals here whether they go for NoFap or not. It will depend on their circumstances, are they young or older, married or divorced, with a partner or not, straight or gay and so on. The main thing is that we respect each other and are honest and try to help each other. I am not religious but there are members of my family who are. I treat their views with respect even if I don't agree with them. I'd like to argue that this is not a NoFap site, but that we should all respect those who believe that for them it is the only way. In my own case I will not know how I feel till I have reached my aim of 90 days. At the moment my feeling is that I will then try M, but give it up if it leads me back to addiction and PMO. What we all agree about is that addiction to P is obsessive, compulsive and destructive.
Yes, this. But it seems that even NoFap is more about porn addiction nowadays. It started out as a no masturbation subreddit, but the two are too closely linked. My personal view is that masturbation is neither inherently good nor bad. If you want to do it, do it; if you don't want to do it, don't do it.
Hi Luke, Good to hear this from someone who, unlike me, has been on this site for some time. It's just that I see conflicting views when I read the posts here.
What do you mean, DBA? Nofap started exclusively as a religious thing? I have no idea, because I'm an atheist. For me there is no connection between PMO and sinning (since I don't even think there's such thing as sinning). I don't even think that PMO is inherently bad. It's bad for some people but not for others, who can do it in a controlled way. Just like alcohol. Some people are addicted to it. Others know how to drink responsibly. For someone addicted to PMO, I do believe that the P part really leads to more binge and escalation. It's the facilitator for M and O, which when abused will drain your energy. It's like P destroys you psychologically, while M and O when heavily abused destroys you physically. I do not believe it's healthy for someone who has no relationship or partner, to stay a very long period of time without O. Sure 90-180 days abstaining isn't going to hurt you, but years and years of it... It's just not how humans are supposed to work. So, the challenge for a PMO addict is to get rid of porn for good (that one isn't going to help you with anything) and to learn how to MO responsibly (maybe once or twice a week, with no edging). If they can find a partner to have actual sex, they will probably benefit if they simply keep the O. But let's not pretend everyone can get a partner by just snapping fingers. It can take years, and I don't think it's healthy to stay years without O. So, for those, responsible MO is the way. With a very big emphasis on responsible, because I'm fully aware that for people like us, escalation and binge are just around the corner to trap you.
I don't regard P as wicked either. What is bad is the compulsion to watch it. That becomes an addiction like any other addiction. All of us on this site have to get rid of P for ever because it is too destructive. I also agree about no edging. That is likely to lead back to P.
I can certainly see how if masturbating leads you to porn it would be bad. But if you can masturbate without porn, what is the harm? That is a serious question. I would love to understand why people see the connection. Of course if you do it all day long it could be bad, but that could be said for anything. If I ate all day long (which sometimes it seems I do) it would be bad for me, but that doesn't mean I would cut out eating completely.
I see nothing wrong in M without P. But no edging and no fantasies from things you have watched on P. But keep rebooting for longer (no P or M) before you try M.
Some people feel similar negative effects from masturbation alone as they do from watching porn, for example low energy or low motivation. Also, some people with PIED have setbacks in their recovery process even if they masturbate without porn. I'm not really sure why this happens, but one explanation I find plausible is the whole "Neurons that fire together wire together". So masturbation and porn are so closely linked for a lot of people (one almost never happens without the other) that the brain can't differentiate between the two anymore, even if those people masturbate without porn. Especially guys in their 30s or younger grew up with highspeed internet porn and strengthened that connection from a very young age. We saw thousands of naked women on the internet and masturbated to it before we could even come close to having sex with a real woman. The link between porn and masturbation is pretty strong especially for a lot of young guys and many felt the need to refrain from masturbation as well in order to recover.
But isn't that the whole point of reboot? There's a connection between orgasm and pornography and one needs to break that connection--regardless of whether that orgasm comes from intercourse with a woman or from masturbating. Just like Pavlov's dogs where there was a bond between a bell and meat (or salivating in anticipation of meat). If Pavlov kept presenting the bell without the meat, eventually the bond would be broken and the dogs would stop salivating at the sound of the bell.
Yes, but ideally the breaking of the connection should be with a women, if possible. Back in the day when the forum was more active we had guys having pretty extreme setbacks just from masturbation alone, literally needing years to recover. So for some guys it's just not worth it to masturbate if they see no progress. Maybe the problem would disappear if they just keep going, but who has the patience.
Yes I have seen that by reading some of the success stories. My situation is slightly different in that I can't have sex with my wife because surgery she has had prevents it, and she no longer feels like sex of any sort (oral, hand). So I'm stuffed. But I do accept that younger people who have used porn since their teens have to avoid M and find or stick with a partner.
It's definitely different for everybody. I found that masturbation alone is okay for me, but it can also become compulsive and I have to be careful. For people with PIED it's not a question anyway, because they can't masturbate without porn or porn fantasy, otherwise they wouldn't have PIED. If they have recovered enough to get erections without porn again, I think it's best to just try it out and see what happens if they want.
I think you aren't wrong. In the ideal world for anyone recovering would be: 1. Stop PMO for 90-180 days. 2. Rewire with a real partner after that. 3. If you do not have a real partner, rewire with responsible MO. This means, no P ever again and also a self imposed limits to how often you MO. If you are going to keep MOing every day you will be also keep draining your energy for all other things. Maybe once or twice a week, 10 minute sessions (no edging for hours, which is completely unnatural and releases way more dopamine than what you actually need). I think this is important, as otherwise, if you have no partner and you also completely remove orgasms from your life, you will likely end up burying your whole sexuality, and that could be very depressing.
I can masturbate without porn (though with more difficulty than with porn), nit that doesn’t mean I don’t have PIED because sex with my wife is generally a failure. I agree with you though, that masturbation per se is not the problem.
As you can see, there are no conclusive answers as to how one's recovery should be. If what you're really asking is permission to beat off then that's not a good place to start, imo. Rewiring is about finding one's own way through the quagmire of what's been built up over a lifetime. If a person is content with how their life is going then they need look no further into their soul. However, if disenchantment (depression) are following you then more austerity is needed with regard to touching our penises.
If you look at what I wrote you will see that I suggested the answer might depend on circumstances. But I fully appreciate what you say.
Yeah, I totally get where you're coming from @DBA. Everyone uses the site for how it suits them best. If, however, we ask the question: "Is this a no-fap site?" then are we looking for people to agree that fapping is okay? I used to have a weight problem. I was basically a fat pig. If I asked a weight-loss forum, "is it okay to eat a brownie once a week?," what I would really be asking (in my case anyway) is if I can have a brownie once a week and still lose weight. Because I'm a food/sugar addict I can't allow myself to eat a brownie, because I know it would lead me back to binging on food. I've made a mess of my life. I fucked around on my wife, I lied, and I abandoned the most important project in my life, that being me. Imo we must burn all the old ways down. Half measures lead to, at best, half solutions. If men don't have a partner then they need to get one, otherwise that's just another excuse. If the wife doesn't want the bone then you have to make her want it. But, first and foremost, we must honor the miracle of ourselves. Aren't we worth more than just the old college try? After 3 years of being clean I had a bit of a P binge and then I began to MO once in awhile. I don't judge myself for it and I sure as hell would never judge anyone else who slips. It isn't about judgment, it's about what we really think we are worth.
This although I think a good 20-30 days without Masturbation and Orgasm could be very helpful for just energy and more motivation to do other things
