Hopefully the final round - Let's finish the fight !

Discussion in 'Ages 30-39' started by Rick_C137, Jan 27, 2019.

  1. mikehunt

    mikehunt Member

    I'm not familiar with HHH but I've seen many of TFM's videos so I'm aware of the hostility towards "tradcucks". I don't think their worldview should be dismissed entirely but I agree that they're in denial if they believe marriage still exists as it was originally intended. As TFM says in his video, "no responsibility without authority".

    Although TFM's lifestyle doesn't seem very compelling. He says "just get a doll", as if sexdolls are an effective replacement. Maybe in 10+ years... Maybe a realistic robot + artificial womb will be an effective replacement. But then there is also the idea that we need to go our own way and stop feeding the system so that civilization will collapse and then we can bring back patriarchy... but which is it? Who will develop our robots once civilization has collapsed? I don't think you can have both. Technological advancement vs societal collapse. Robo-traditionalism vs real patriarchal traditionalism. It isn't clear what a mgtow is supposed to want, other than rejecting the bad deal we've been given.
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
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  2. Rick_C137

    Rick_C137 New Member

    HHH is happy humble hermit. Fairly new channel from 2017. Has some interesting videos with more in depth thoughts. (Like the video about South Korea's decline and comparison to the mouse utopia experient. Very interesting parallels
    Here is the link to his channel.

    This is the video about South Korea. Imho very interesting to watch.

    slight trigger warning: the video thumbnails have girls pics, but usually nothing too lewd

    I agree with you, that we should not entirely dismiss the tradcuck's worldview. (In general I don't want to dismiss any opinion/view if it's based on reason, logic and facts!)
    They are at least somehow concerned about the nuclear family. I'd actually support them, if they would get their shit together and stop trying the useless MRA way.
    I'm totally on the side of TFM "no responsibility without authority".
    That's basically the litmus test, if the person you're talking to is rational and understands the severtiy of the situation.

    Here is one of his latest shows, where a man tells the story of his marriage with a devout christian woman, who then became crazy with some wicca / fairy religion whatever. Basically due to the laws, altough the wife is clearly not mentally stable enough to care for the children, she would get custody and the man would be stripped of everything he has !
    Just listen in for 5-10 min, then you can't stop until the end. It's extremely funny and sad at the same time. I really have sympathy for the man and the 3 children.
    This is beyond fucked up !

    That's basically the main point of MGTOW for avoiding marriage.
    And as I see, there are many men in the MGTOW community, who are reluctantly mgtow, so when the situation improves, they will have families. So the thing is: Bring back authority to men.
    But I don't see this from the "tradcucks". All I see is, that they talk about this stuff, but never even come close to saying out loud the solution.

    Tbh, I was at first quite dumbfounded of his channel. On the one hand, he really had absolutely sensible content and analysed the situation in a 100% rational way.
    Then I stumbled on this doll thing and was really really irritated.

    There was this waifu problems video, where he talked about problems with his replica AI chat bot whatever ...
    I was rolling on floor laughing.

    So, let's say it like that. Ofc it's not a replacement.
    But, he considers many factors, e.g. false accusations get massively worse nowadays, Cohabitation laws, whatever ...
    "psycho girlfirends", getting the woman accidentally pregnant and the man getting extorted afterwards, and don't forget the coming STD epidemic, caused by the hookup culture. It is spreading massively !

    What I like about TFM, he really just is a forerunner. He said also somewhere, if you have problems with porn/sex addiction, then you should probably go with nofap monk mode. He doesn't dismiss this option.
    He just says what he is doing, and you can do whatever you like, he doesn't push you in any direction (besides the "just get a doll solution" XD).
    In his view, monk mode is not for every guy, he says many men have a need for a release and considering all the factors about a doll is a solution.
    It agree that it's very weird, and I dont plan to buy one XD
    but I agree that the whole situation is messed up as well.

    I think that's the fascinating thing about mgtow. Every man just decides for himself what he will do.
    I guess some form of societal collapse or at least decline is inevitable, looking at todays situation.
    And I don't think the things you said are mutually exclusive.
    Men reject the bad deal -> we go our own way and stop feeding the system -> civilization will collapse -> then we can bring back patriarchy...
    Nothing hinders us to use that free time to work on this technology as I don't think it will be a total collapse, probably more like a slow decline. There will be probably countries or places at least, where such men will congregate and running at least a minimal civilisation.

    Also another thing is, stay red pilled, go to a more traditional/patriachical country, like EE (but I'm not sure anymore about them), Russia or (south) East Asia somewhere and have a family there. I'm also contemplating this option after earning enough money.
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
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  3. mikehunt

    mikehunt Member

    That South Korea video was fascinating but also terribly depressing. I watched some of his other videos last night and that didn't do much to shift the tone. He has the philosophy of self-actualization and self-ownership which I appreciate, but then he acts like it's an all-or-nothing sort of deal, as if you can't have a relationship on the side. He acknowledges desire for women yet his solution seems to be 'pump & dump', or sexdolls, for meeting that desire. That's too meaningless, and seemingly at odds with his spiritual quest of self-actualization.

    Even if you move to a more patriarchal country, I doubt it would last. I believe Philippines is the last country to outlaw divorce and that won't hold up much longer. The world isn't becoming more patriarchal.

    I'm not sure what to think of the trend of women inventing these crazy new religions. Pretending to be a fairy, acting like a child... Does it really have religious significance or is it basically a shit test? Then again, HHH mentioned that "the Buddha did not believe women are capable of enlightenment" as they lack the analytical foundation for true religious purpose. If religion for women is something like a status symbol, something to make her feel good, then a woman's "religious conviction" can't be taken seriously.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
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  4. Rick_C137

    Rick_C137 New Member

    Oh yeah, that happy in his nickname is indeed slightly missleading ...

    what I actually liked was that he opened up some perspectives, as I didn't know it was like that in asia as well.
    Ok, it's more abouth South Korea ofc, as they adopted the western (materealistic) lifestyle and somehow inported feminism by copying the west.
    Japan is a bit weird, too, as there is no open feminsm, they are still more in the right with heavily restricting immigration, and even being more racist,
    but the laws are gynocentric as well.
    TFM made also a video recently about an article, where a Japanese politian actually named the cause for Japans declining fertility (= women not having kids) !!!
    He had to apologize for that on the same day !
    Absolutely weird ...

    The asian countries have obviously their own problems.
    I just found and watched this video, and have basically to agree.
    But tbh, the Chinese did it to themselves with their crazy one child policy, combined with their culture for "preference" of boys and now creating this mess with a giant imbalance in the gender ratio.

    So anyway, about HHH. You described it pretty good, I really like this strong emphasis on philosophy of self-actualization and self-ownership, too.
    But yes, the channel has downsides as well, and yes, this guy seems to embrace mgtow 100% and women are just a distraction for him on his path. This is, what the mgtow philosophy is at the end: you live for yourself, you don't give a fuck about the society around you wants/expects from you.
    Idk if he is this all-or-nothing, I heard some clips, where he talked about his relationship on the side, but yeah, in his view all relationships will end sooner or later, and this is already clear for him at the beginning of the relationship.
    And then I asked myself, why does he even bother ... ?

    I agree, that the world isn't becoming more patriarchal, and this is really a problem (for me) and in general as well.
    That's why I'm talking so much about this mgtow stuff atm. They are right, marriage is a shitty deal for men atm.
    Maybe the least harmful option for men is to have children without marriage ...

    It's not only women inventing crazy religions, but they seem to be more affected. But the main point I wanted to highlight is, that as a man you're totally screwed in such a situation.
    And as long as a society is that crazy, I dont want to support it.

    I'm ok with marriage rates declining, and I think people only should marry if they take it seriously and actually want to stay together forever. If not, fine, then don't get married.
    I think divorce has also right to exist, but only in "serious" cases, where partners actually did something wrong, or are abusive. Ofc that's a sensible reason.
    But this nofault divorce, this is madness.
    And especially this whole divorce industry complex feeding on men. Crazy.
    Sure in Europe it's a bit differnt, but that's too much hassle for me to differenciate there ...
    And looking at the laws, it will become here crazy as well ...
    Interesting, what you're saying about women and religion, as this also fits somewhere in what TFM says, with the levels of morality of women.
    TFM mentioned several times scientific studies, that men acutally have more and higher level of morality which they reach when they mature (6 or so).
    Women reach only the third, and that's it. And the crazy thing is, seems that an feminist researcher didn't like the findings of the male colleague, so she took the first 3 stages, and renamed the 3 moral stages of women to "care based morality" or something like that, that it sounds as something different.
    I'm not making that stuff up. Just citing TFM, and as he did so often mention it, I'm really sure the story is true. (Otherwise he could be easily attacked and debunked for telling bs)

    Oh and here is another good mgtow video, which is actually related to nofap.
    Stardusk makes the argument, that sex is raised to the status of a religion (in the west), especially by the media and women are basically the clergy. This really does explain many things and it helped me more to indentify more of the brainwashing as well.
    (You also could extend it to consumerism).
    Altogh I find it a bit difficult to listen to him, he is a bit slow / boring.

    I'm now a bit confused with the NBA book after the last chapters.
    So he is at least humble enough to admit that this separation isn't his idea.
    So idk now ... I find this separation helpful, but probably have to look into this rational recovery systems book.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
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  5. Merton

    Merton Well-Known Member

    About the remarks on NBA, I have met many people who have gotten some success with rational recovery. I do think that porn addiction is not a completely black and white addiction. Of course you know if you’re looking at porn, but there is a lot of grey area. Furthermore, it is natural to engage in sexual behavior while it is not natural to inject heroin. So it seems to me sex addiction is somewhere in between food and drugs.

    Edit: I think I will finally check out rational recovery as well.
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  6. Rick_C137

    Rick_C137 New Member

    Yeah exactly. I don't want to use this as an excuse to dismiss the book, as that's exactly one tactic of the food-pig, just starting to question everything. I want to stop it and that's it.

    So, you are totally right, with PMO, it's difficult to put it into one category. It's not as substance, on the other hand it's not food either, which you actually need.
    While sexual behaviour is natural, looking at P is not.

    MO is the grey area. Primates do it as well.
    Do we need it ? Idk.
    Can we live without it ? Sure.

    Looking at P is probably this black white addiction - As there is indeed 100% no reason, to look at it.
    So, yeah, looking into rational recovery wont hurt us, and maybe will be benefitial.

    So my current verdict is, that I was probably too euphoric with the easyway book, and it probably just fueled my red pill rage phase. I probably would have been that euphoric about the NBA book as well, hadn't I read the easyway book before. Now I just stay more calm.

    Easyway is a bit too complex with its "two monsters" although the explanation is "ok". It explains quite good why you are feeling what you're feeling (withdrawal pangs, etc).
    And I like that it points much better the societal brainwashing, but at the same time it rambles a bit too much ...

    NBA is quite simple: Define your plan. Stick to it. Separate the addicted voice/part from you, ignore it and shut down any other wrong thought. Period.

    It's a bit stupid, I can't find a ebook version of rational recovery ...
    At least there is this good guy, who summarized it https://www.reddit.com/r/NoFap/comments/1ljqa1/rational_recovery/

    The summary sounds pretty similar to NBA ...

    Even funnier https://www.the-alcoholism-guide.org/rational-recovery.html
    Has some (strong) critizism of it, but the last sentence is hillarious. "Courting Controversy [...] This does not mean his system does not work, on the contrary, it has a statistically better success rate than Alcoholics Anonymous."

    I'll read this, maybe this will help, The Internet Crash Course On AVRT https://rational.org/index.php?id=35
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
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  7. occams_razor

    occams_razor Well-Known Member

    I had a quick look at a Rational Recovery website a while back. Perhaps it was the official page, I'm not sure. I was quickly put off by its judgemental tone. It seemed like it was putting ALL the blame on the addict and generally didn't seem helpful to me. Admittedly I didn't spend much time on the website. Just my opinion anyway.
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  8. Rick_C137

    Rick_C137 New Member

    I'll explore the site a bit and keep an eye on the tone.

    Ofc, this is totally counter productive to put ALL the blame on the addict, this would be total bs. It's usually not the addicts fault getting addicted. This process is so slow and insidious, and was basically unknown, that PMO is addictive as well. So yeah, if something starts in such a tone, you can dismiss it.
    To balance things out, I would blame the addict *only* in the case, when you know you're addicted, but you don't do *anything* about it. As long as you are trying to get rid of the addiction, you can't be blamed.

    At a first glance, the keywords here are mostly correct, I'd say.

    Oh, and just one thing, about this mgtow HHH channel:
    He made a video recently "Sexbots Seeking MGTOW".
    He is totally aware, that a man can waste a lot of time with such a future sex doll/bot and may become even obsessed with it - so that it interferes with him becoming self actualized.
    He finishes with this
    In case you want to listen to it completely.

    So yeah, this solidifies my current view, that these dolls and later bots can become or even are another form of porn.
    Like HHH said somewhere inbetween "yes even artificial women can trap a man by consuming all of his emotional output in time and giving nothing in return"
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
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  9. mikehunt

    mikehunt Member

    The Coolidge effect prevents it from being as addicting as porn. Although ideally it won't be a sexbot, but a general purpose robot that you can have sex with (if desired). She'll clean your house, cook your meals, take care of you in your old age.
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  10. Rick_C137

    Rick_C137 New Member

    So, I've got a relapse to admit on the weekend.
    I was ok most of the time, but then urges even started Friday and it was a whole day of fighting, due to malaise and not sleeping well, I just couldn't control my thoughts the next day. This lead to urges and finally relapse. I tried to keep bingeing at bay.

    Sunday was more or less ok. Today as well.
    Ofc got a lot of urges yesterday, but tbh, I just didn't want to engage in PMO.
    I'm again working more on my attitude and removing the desire to PMO. While at the same time controlling thoughts.
    So basically a combined approach from Allen Carr and NBA.

    So atm, I think NBA is better for the short- and mid-term. Carr I'd say for the long term.

    Probably I will read the NBA book again, when I find time somehow ...
    Sadly, I don't have that much time atm. I actually wanted to read all of your journals and keep up with them.

    The mgtow chats were quite a time drain, but still yielded some interesting conversations.
    Also talked to some guys about addictions in general.
    One guy actually said he thinks the want for a cigarette will probably never go away unless he works intensely on his psyche. (I think that's exactly the brainwashing.)

    But his approach is what he calls habit substitution, which seems to work for him
    In the case of smoking, every time he feels the need to smoke he'll instead do a box-breathing exercise. Breathe in 4 seconds. Hold breath 4 seconds. Breathe out 4 seconds.
    Evaluate whether I still want a cigarette.

    Repeat that cycle untill the craving for the cigarette is gone. When it is gone, resume work once more.

    Sounds pretty simple. I'll look into that as well and sounds more like a very short meditation. But maybe good to have this in the toolbox as well, if e.g. going out for a walk is not possible.

    Hm, right, haven't thought of that. Quite possible, that it wont be that extreme.

    Actually an interesting scenario. Ok, the current market focuses mainly on sexbots.
    Haven't seen much else atm ...
    But this makes even more sense, when the motor functions reach a certain level, indeed, that would it make more valuable. On the other hand probably more expensive. Idk, if many of the current target customer group would buy it.
    But yeah, I think, there is definitely a market there. Also think of the surplus of men globally (and especially in china).
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
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  11. Merton

    Merton Well-Known Member

    This breathing idea is a great one. I will try it. I usually count but I think deep breaths feel better and are more distracting.
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  12. Rick_C137

    Rick_C137 New Member

    Yes exactly. Deep breaths require more focus, and will be relaxing at the same time.
    Actually, that sounds so simple. Why didn't we came up with that earlier ? (Probably somewhere we stumbled upon it, but I just don't remember).

    I tried it on the first pangs, and it seemed to work (as usual with me, when I try something new and am euphoric about it :p)
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  13. Merton

    Merton Well-Known Member

    I am exactly the same way!
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  14. Rick_C137

    Rick_C137 New Member

    So, tbh, I had my usual weekend relapse but am again back on track.
    And before doing something stupid, I'll write a short post.

    And I don't know how exactly, but I managed to forget this box breathing excercise / habbit replacement. Totally weird, I can't explain it to myself either.
    I just remembered it now, when reading our last posts here. Hypofrontality and impaired memory is totally a thing !
    Maybe due to the time just gets more stressful again (and have fix my car - That's getting a bit annoying and costly ...)

    An interesting observation is, that I'm probably making progress:
    It's getting similar to my coffee consumption years ago. I stopped long ago seeing any sense in PMO, now my body seems to follow and the want for PMO starts decreasing.
    Sure the withdrawal pangs were there today, but for the second day they were quite manageable / almost low - while at the same time I just wasn't in the mood for PMO.
    The important thing is really to find something to fill that void.
    I somehow did fall back to my old computer games for some hours, but really, I didn't enjoy them that much anymore ...

    The mgtow stuff was quite interesting in the last days, but I put it in a optional spoiler:
    So it's quite a time sink, but I had some interesting conversations, as there are some cool dudes.
    Also it helps to connect to men who see the world in a similar way.

    And one of TFM's recent videos is very interesting, regarding mentality and philosophy (especially he mentions and links to an analysis of a character from the Star Wars KOTOR 2 game

    I played it, but it seems I actually didn't grasp the whole depth of the game back then.

    So the mgtow are talking about really fancy stuff there as well.

    So what I find sad is, that so much potential of these men is more or less wasted or at least wont benefit society. But on the other hand, the society obviously deserves it that way (b/c of its idiotic laws).
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  15. occams_razor

    occams_razor Well-Known Member

    Haven't heard from you in a while, how are things?
  16. occams_razor

    occams_razor Well-Known Member


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