Hopefully the final round - Let's finish the fight !

Discussion in 'Ages 30-39' started by Rick_C137, Jan 27, 2019.

  1. Rick_C137

    Rick_C137 New Member

    Hi everyone,
    I'm following my friends to this forum and before I start procrastinating, I make a intro thread & start my log.

    I'll first start with a short intro with my journey and my goals.
    The 30+ age bracket doesn't apply to me yet, but it will happen this year, so I'm ready to accept my fate ;)
    I'm male and started PMO around 2001, the rest of my story is pretty similar to many of you here.
    I'm currently single, with no own family - so at least no other people are harmed by my addiction and my fight.

    It took some time until I finally realized (with the help of the online ressources & TED talk), that PMO drains my energy and makes me feel miserable.
    First attempts started 2015 and 2016 I joined the nofap forums.
    One of my first streaks was 41 days in the first year, and that was it. I've done it with pure willpower and after that it was depleted. Further tries resulted in constant relapses.

    Then the second year wasn't that successfull and it wasn't helpful (for the journey), that I found PUA game advice, which often triggered urges. This PUA stuff lead finally to the red pill, Stefan Molyneux' channel and finally 2018 diving into the MGTOW movement.
    It was quite difficult to swallow, but their observations and arguments are rational and totally make sense, so I had no choice but to accept this - at least until I find a new direction which explains the current world even better.
    But I think I will save this content for the dedicated MGTOW communities and focus here on the addiction. But I'm convinced that we have to talk about "global" societal problems here as well, as they are one of the main causes of our addiction.

    The third year is, when things got really interesting, as I decided to tackle the addiction from another direction. I found an AP for a short time, who by chance recommended me Allen Carr's book "Easyway to stop smoking". I started a thread and got hints that there is an adapted version called the hackbook, in which the author has adapted the easyway book for PMO.
    I was quite euphoric at that time - happy, that I finally found a method "that works". And it did work for some time, but at the end I couldn't get over the addiction with this method only. The book has a lot of good points, especially about the "brainwashing": The "hyper-sexualisation" of our everyday life and "acceptance" of porn in society are main reason for the PMO addiction (imho). (This is I think where it can sometimes go political, as there are certain groups and media outlets with a certain political affiliation, who actively promote porn and degeneracy).

    In general I must say, that PMO really did wreck my 20s, as is killed my motivation to pursue relationships & more in life and job wise it has hold be back as well - But this could be as well the general demotivation caused by the coorporate hamster wheel.

    The last year was also quite stressfull, as I tried to found a startup (which doesn't really fly atm), and was processing the mgtow content. In the last months I was basically relapsing 1-2 times every 1-2 weeks.
    This is again far better than I was a year ago, but I want to finally get rid of this addiction.
    What I want to do:
    The pure easyway method doesn't work. It helps me to become aware of the brainwashing, and general awareness is also useful,
    but as a second part, I have to control my thoughts - the part, which I neglected in the last months.
    Hopefully meditation will help with that as well.

    So that's it for the moment.
    I don't plan to post daily, but only when something interesting happens or I want to share some thoughts.

    Thanks for reading.
    I hope this year will be the final round !
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
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  2. Rick_C137

    Rick_C137 New Member

    As an additional thought:
    I also want to look for methods to harness that "excess energy" into something productive (sort of sexual transmuation from the Think and Grow Rich book). Would be interesting if someone has additional ressources about that.
    Or will it just happen automatically, when you abstain from PMO ?

    For the MGTOW movement part: I think some of the content first led me to some sort of rage phase, when seeing what's wrong with society and how I was (and men in general were) lied to by society.
    Then again, the content helps also to go over the rage phase to some sort of acceptance.

    On the other hand, they also have some of their "dark sides" which are probably detrimental to the nofap journey.
    They recognize the male sex drive and that's why they have different "solutions" for that, which also leads them to be more open to some sorts of porn and the "current" trend are sex dolls.
    From a purely rational & financial point I have to agree reluctantly, that they are an option:
    When you take into account the dangers of false rape accusations, unwanted pregnancy & getting taken to the cleaners after a divorce, esp. in the western countries, and you just have this sex drive, then - hmm - Ican't say anything against that. The laws are like that and they are shit. Men adapt to these shitty circumstances in different ways.

    On the other hand the doll probably shares some of the addictive potential of PMO (but actually not that extreme, as the doll stays the same for the most part and you can't escalate it compared to watching P and get this novelty all the time)

    As a last part: TFM said himself, he is aware of guys, who are struggling with sex/pmo addiction and they should probably go full monk mode and stay away from the dolls as well.

    So, back to the journey, I'm on day 5.
    Yesterday, all over the day, and while writing, I felt urges again.
    I can't really describe it, but since reading the Easyway book, I can feel some difference, between the "withdrawal pangs" in the first 1-2 days - they are quite specific and in the past this is what I thought and referred to as the chaser effect. Then it usually fades.
    My current take on that is, that it this "chemical addiction" and it is actually not *that* difficult to handle. Yes it is quite uncomfortable, but everytime you stop PMOing, you go through it. So yeah, you survive it every time, and then it fades away. The only rational way to stop it, is not to repeat the cycle and you're done.

    The second part are what I call the "urges" (usually starting somewhere at days 4-5) and the time where I'm really struggling.
    This often develops to a strong visceral feeling, often in the gut region.
    Sometimes its also accompanied by headaches, but in general I have to say, in this relapse every 1-2 weeks regime, the headaches become less frequent. (And become more frequent, when I'm relapsing every 2-3 days).

    So my current view is, that this is still caused by the "brainwashing". That I've still some beliefs left, that I need this PMO fix (which is ofc bs).
    I guess I have to use all the willpower I've got left to remove the thoughts, everytime they appear. And use meditation to be more balanced in general.
    I'm really interested how you guys coping with this part.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
  3. Rick_C137

    Rick_C137 New Member

    So, I have to admit again a relapse on day 7.
    The last two days were just recurring fights every 1-3 hours.
    And day 7 was just fighting all the day until I gave in after stumbling over an image in a discord chat room ...

    So, what I clearly realized, that the relpase had no positive effect but it hasn't messed up everything (yet).
    Also the pangs/urges occured almost immediately afterwards. That was crazy.
    And somehow I had a short moment of clarity: The feeling was exactly the same as hours before the relapse. Its difficult to put my thoughts into words atm.
    Somehow I had this realization, that these chaser effect - binge pangs - urges are not weaker but also not stronger as the urges at higher streaks.
    Somehow that gave me motivation.

    I just tried to distract myself and opened the book @Merton and @occams_razor recommended me: Never binge again.
    It also starts very promising.
    Sure the beginning is quite similar to easyway, with all the nice talk, just to read the book completely without premature judgement.

    And I guess most of these methods target a quite similar understanding of the addiction.
    Here it sounds as well, as the addiction manifests itself as a separate voice your head (the addicted / bingeeating self).

    Tbh, I can't really relate that much to binge eating, as I'm most of the time ok with my weight. If I'm 3-5kg over my "default" state, I see that immediately and also feel it. If I've even gained these few kg, I get all sorts of digestive symptoms and it becomes really uncomfortable.
    The best solution would be to increase fitness activities, but I'm too lethargic in the last months, so I just reduce eating, and also "just" endure hunger for 1-2 hours, before finally eating something. Doing this for some weeks brings my weight down. (And also reducing sweets).
    Idk, I don't find it difficult. It's just "uncomfortable" and takes some weeks, and everything is fine.

    So now back to PMO, what I liked in the intro of the book, is the quote "Because what you’ve been calling a weight problem — or difficulty sticking with your best thinking about what to eat — is in reality a survival drive gone wrong".
    I really like this view and this is something what recently struck me, while writing with Merton.
    I'm convinced that most of the addiction plays out in the mind and the addictions are quite similar (although PMO is slightly different, in the sense, that it is entangled with the natural instincts/desire to procreate and I think that makes it harder.)
    And while writing that, I realized, that eating is also a natural instinct. So yeah, looking how to get over such types of addictions makes total sense.
     
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  4. Merton

    Merton Well-Known Member

    I’m sorry to hear of the relapse. There seems to be a chain of that going around.

    I totally agree about this survival drive gone wrong. In this way it seems very similar to binge eating. I also cannot really relate to binge eating but definitely to porn! Another big similarity is the degree to which advertisers and executives try to get our attention in both cases.
     
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  5. Rick_C137

    Rick_C137 New Member

    The book is interesting. I've read it at night and made some notes. I'm at 35% now.

    Probably have to re read it again to understand "this approach" fully. (That's some of the drawbacks when I read something before sleep).

    I somehow like the idea, that there is you (the good part) and the Pig.
    Idk if it's psychologically good, you're basically splitting up a part of your into a separate personality ?
    But on the other hand, we should actually be aware of that. TFM had a video on that, where he actually described basically this as well. (don't let you fool by the title, the content is good, especially the intro with the facts about the brain, there is this lizard brain part, and it compells us to do stupid things.)
    MGTOW: She'll Never Love You (Special Edition) )

    The book wants to convince us, that we can actually control it. That would be awesome. Also I'm starting to get this funny euphoric feeling, like with the other book, that this time I'll win.

    That's another part I like: bashing society and every hit is deserved.
    I'm really starting to see a pattern here. It's almost the same as with PMO !!
    I was quite tired, otherwise I'd be raging after reading that ...


    What I also realized:
    the book tells you to stay as comfortable as possible:
    This is a bit similar as I wrote a post in the other forum avoid H.A.L.T.
    Hungry Angry Lonely Tired
    Tbh, in the last year, H.& T. was often the case. sometimes A as well, or just stressed, which is an even bigger trigger for PMO for me. Have to keep that in mind ...

    I like the analogy with the Pig Slop and quite interesting quote here:
    So one question I've got now, what exactly is then the "food plan and nourishing the body" in the context of sexuality and getting rid of PMO (and with the constraint of abtaining from relationships for a while ...)
    Almost same question as with the last book. P is oviously 100% Slop. What's with MO?
    As I see from many men going full monk mode / nofap hard mode for years, I guess it's ok to completely shut this down.

    That marriage reference was a bit odd. (Especially when you see marriage in the west for what it has become for men today ...)
    Anyway, I'll continue reading. The book is fairly easy digestible - lol.

    So, before this blows up my thread,
    should we again create dedicated threads for the easyway book & never binge again?
    What's your opinion on that ?
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  6. Rick_C137

    Rick_C137 New Member

    Update at 47%
    So, I had a whole day of "Pig Squeal" (aka urges). It was actually massive. I didn't expect that.
    Usually I'd give into such massive urges. This time it seems that I've got more motivation and maybe the method is better now.
    I'm really starting to like this idea to separate it from "yourself" and seeing it like it's not you who is suffering.
    Somehow this makes it sort of amusing to feel the other part of you suffering - as a revenge for all this lost life time and energy.

    Next point, I'm again not so much agreeing with the law comparison. The laws are in generally becoming more shit with time. not better.

    At least this book makes again a case *against* counting days. And that's still my opinion as well from the other book.
     
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  7. Caoimhín

    Caoimhín Winter's coming...

    Sorry to hear about the relapse. I am of two minds regarding counters. On the one hand, it really serves me well to draw a line in the sand and see where I started from. On the other hand, the counter tends to be something that fits into my addictive nature somewhere in between obsessive behaviour (and wanting to be perfect) and the ugly reality of my addictive habits. I use the counter.
     
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  8. -Luke-

    -Luke- Well-Known Member

    I have an on-off relationship with counters and am still not sure what to make of them. They can be really motivating, especially in the first weeks. But they can be dangerous too. Let's say you have 100 days on your counter and relapse. The counter then says 0 (or 1) which can lead to the feeling that you've lost everything and that the progress you've made is competely gone (which is not true).
     
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  9. Caoimhín

    Caoimhín Winter's coming...

    Agree! Take for example the counters that I use on the language-learning app Duolingo or my meditation tracker. On both of them, I have about 400 consecutive days... without missing one. But what if I did not study my target language for one day and broke my steak? Does that mean that my language learning has resset to zero. Or would all of the benefits of daily meditation evapourate because I miss one day? No, there is a cumulative effect.
     
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  10. Merton

    Merton Well-Known Member

    Yes I totally agree with all of this. Seeing a 0 on the counter is the absolute worst thing for recovery. It means it is time for binge city! I like the underdog's suggestion to record a spreadsheet. I may try this.
     
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  11. Rick_C137

    Rick_C137 New Member

    This is great input. I agree with everything all of you wrote.

    To specify the (negative) view where I was coming from:
    Basically, the argument from the hackbook was (and NBA is similar)
    This is the main thing I don't like about the counters, and I feel, that's how they are basically used at nofap. Especially with the challenges. This only increases the feeling of "deprivation of the precious". And this is what I find dangerous and stupid.

    Exactly.
    I am still using sort of using the counter as well, at least when I'm updating my (internal) daily log. So I keep track of stuff more easlity and it helps making some statistics (so I know how many times I relapsed in a month). Also I tried completely without the counter but I tended to deliberately forget relapses to feel better and just deceived myself.
    The statistics can be very scary: Suppose a relapse takes 30 or even 60 min - and you've got about one relapse a week or so (=> 4/ month => 48/year at least). This basically means you wasted at least a whole working week !
    It helps me better to keep track for the lost time and also increase the sense of urgency and that's why I use them in this daily logging / statistics mode.

    But I try not to think everyday of the counter ... only when urges hit, I try to reassure myself. Ok, it's only day 2,3,4 ... that's normal ...

    on-off relationship is indeed a good word for that.
    And exactly how @Merton wrote, this often leads to binges ...

    This is an awesome analogy. No one can ever take those 400 pmo-free days away.
    And this can be actually very motivating, when you manage not to binge afterwards.

    So the gist is basically: Counters are ok for some specific purposes, but you have to use them carefully/wisely.

    I didn't make that much progress in the book, so I'll continue reading and tidy up my notes for the next time.
     
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  12. mikehunt

    mikehunt Member

    That's a good argument against counters, although I think it depends how you phrase it. Whether you're depriving yourself of something you want (porn), or channeling your energies towards something greater (sex transmutation, as you mentioned earlier). For long lasting results, it needs to be a lifestyle, not a deprivation contest. The inevitable result of such a contest is predictable, sure. But I wouldn't drop the counter until I'm absolutely certain. As long as there is room for doubt, there is room for relapse. We are battling our biology as well as our habits, and we need 4-8 weeks on a counter just to defeat the habit part of it.

    Regarding sex transmutation, I think its power comes from a mixture of habit void + undepleted sexual energy. You need to fill the void with something now that PMO is missing. A good book for this The Power of Habit (Charles Dughigg), and his concept of habit loop. Where you used to have smoking (one of the examples), you fill it with exercise or some other smoking replacement. With a PMO habit, you need to transmute the addictive energy of the habit loop as well as the extra energy that comes from semen retention. It's a powerful source of energy for... something. Professional athletes would use it to improve athletic performance, business executives improving business productivity (as in Think and Grow Rich). Steve Jobs had an active sex life, but he never ejaculated. Transmuting precious energies into greater pursuits.
     
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  13. Caoimhín

    Caoimhín Winter's coming...

    So, I have heard of the ability to not ejaculate... but as far as my internal wiring, there was no way to stop that train once it entered the tunnel.
     
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  14. Rick_C137

    Rick_C137 New Member

    Hm, again a relapse yesterday. So 5 Days. I tried not to binge and get back on track as fast as possible.
    Withdrawal pangs are really annoying today.

    I haven't read the NBA book for a while, but I'll write some of my notes now.
    To be honest, I'm starting to like this book more and more.
    I've got only few days into trying this method. So can't tell about the long term and it's somehow difficult to describe. The idea is interesting, to separate this addicted part of yourself into this "pig". I guess it's just a visualisation technique, but it may work. I'm actually experiencing some fun letting the other part suffer. Sort of sweet sweet revenge.
    As it's not *you* anymore, so the urges can't hurt *you* anymore.

    And I like the message, as it is quite powerful: You take control of it, and you dominate it. Period.
    I think this was somehow missing in the easyway/hackbook.

    Yeah, and now I guess, I more or less mixed up counters and these challenges popular on nofap. The challenges are really the "stupid" thing. They did nothing else to me than increase the feeling of being deprived of something.
    Counters on the other hand, have their positive and negative sides, but atm I think the counter is more useful for me, at least internally and as long I don't think too much about it.

    That's what I'm struggling with.
    Sometimes it worked to use this pent up energy to do great workouts. But there is often something missing, and I actually felt drained afterwards and relapsed ...
    As I used just all sorts of stuff to distract me.

    I guess to correct way is to get rid of the addiction (=just be stable and never relapse again) and then you just can use the excess energy. This should probably happen on its own.
    And if not, I need to find a source with an foolproof explanation of how "Transmuting precious energies" actually works ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
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  15. mikehunt

    mikehunt Member

    I don't think workouts are enough unless workouts are your life (professional marathon runner, bodybuilder, etc.). Putting your energy into workouts when you don't have any passion for it could be spiritually draining. Not that workouts aren't part of a healthy routine, just that your primary pursuit in life should be meaningful (spiritually nourishing). Live your life in a way that contributes to self-actualization.

    As for how to do that, I don't think anyone has shown a reliable method that fits the modern world. The blueprint of the past was the american dream (wife, kids, house) + religion. In that context your meaning and purpose as a man came from being a valuable member of the community (good provider, good christian). That doesn't work anymore, as there is no more security and therefore no more community. You're already redpilled on these things, but only something like 10% of marriages are "happy" ones. Most end in misery or divorce. And yet look at how many of us are attempting to derive our meaning/purpose in life from women. Losing ones virginity, attaining a gf, being the husband she deserves... I hope they succeed at their goals but it seems they're basing their livelihood off the misguided premise that women are a man's salvation. I think you need something higher than that, but what that is will depend on your circumstances.
     
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  16. Caoimhín

    Caoimhín Winter's coming...

    EXACTLY!!!! It doesn't work anymore yet most guys are still being raised to fulfill this role! I certainly and regularly feel like an absolute loser because I am without a wife, don't earn lots of money, etc. I'm ok with the Christian stuff though ;)
     
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  17. Rick_C137

    Rick_C137 New Member

    This is so great that you guys understand that.

    In the last days I also had a discussion with one guy in the discord chat, that we were some sort of "involuntary mgtow" - in the sense, that we would like to have a family, but it's not really possible anymore (at least in the west ?).

    This is a really interesting statistic. Where did you found this with the 10% "happy marriages" ?
    I'd also say, it's quite difficult to talk about the causal relationship there. Many of the mgtow channels often mention, that woman's happiness is declining over the last decades as well (despite being empowered everywhere as much as possible).
    In the chat, someone also sent a clip from Tucker Carlson, where he also mentioned the observations of a now democrat member Warren. This was totally weird, as I didn't expect so much truth from any of the mainstream media. (Fox is at least right wing. Anyway, the video is nice and short: Basically it talks about, that women are now trapped, when they want to have a family/children. They ofc don't give the full (red pill) description, but at least they mentioned the dropping wages of men, and that is a problem for women as well. (Ofc the wages drop, as more and more women join the workforce, and with double the supply at the same demand, prices/wages will drop)
    I guess, many marriages are also miserable, b/c the woman has to work, and there is probably really a lot of argument about the finances in the marriages.

    You also just have to search for "top reasons marriages break up" or "top reasons divorce".
    Financial difficulties are often listen at the top, and many others are interrelated, especially this infidelity, lack of intimacy, etc.
    I blame all of that on society and especially politcs (and ofc feminism). They really did the best job they could to sabotage relationships, marriages and family formation.

    So yeah, I totally agree with what you are saying and really sounds like the summary what the mgtow's are saying in their channels (especially this self-actualization stuff).
    This is also a totally different beast, as almost no one can really give you guidance here. Every man has to find and go his own path.

    A very big part of my "red pill rage" was basically about this indoctrination, and that men are pushed into something which with very high probability wont work, and can lead to great suffering for them.
    And yeah, society conditions basically everyone to depend on external validation - while internal validation sounds indeed like the best possible way.

    Ok, I just meant, that I use some of the excess energy for working out.
    You seem to know me well, I don't have passion for working out. That's true. I see it more as an necessary evil/chore.
     
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  18. mikehunt

    mikehunt Member

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  19. mikehunt

    mikehunt Member

    Searched through my notes and the best I could find was "about 12%", and it was written as a rebuttal to the article I just linked you (which has a far more optimistic statistic). Whether that means 12.something, or another ballpark guess based on memory, I'm not sure as I didn't leave a source in my notes. I'm sure it was posted on reddit, but most likely it's a subreddit that is quarantined so nothing is coming up in search and google seems to have stopped indexing its pages. Anyway, I shouldn't have posted something so alarming with no source.

    I didn't think I experienced redpill rage but turns out I was wrong because my notes were full of rage. In my memory it seems more like despair.
     
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  20. Rick_C137

    Rick_C137 New Member

    Also I found something else, HHH called such guys reluctant mgtow. This proabably is a better adjective / description.

    This is a really big chunk of text, I haven't completely read it, but I will to that soon, so maybe I'll understand more of this traditionalist viewpoint (but it is usually dismissed by mgtow as 'tradcuck' - and with good arguments as well ...)
    At least this guy acknowledges the mgtow arguments, which is a first step.
    But seems he gives these arguments still not enough weight, as he tries again to rationalize marriage.

    Also idk what this should be. Sounds a bit like weird voodoo statistics / bs. If you marry as a man, you've got a 50% chance, that marriage will fail / you get divorced. Period. (Same applies to women. A woman has in the currents statistics the same probability that the marriage fails: 50%).
    He probably tries mixing this up or dillute it. So in the case of divorce, if the man wants a divorce, that should not count into anything and should be dismissed / ignored ?
    This is exactly why the mgtow get annoyed by these 'tradcuck' argumentations. They are still gynocentric and don't have a fully objective point of view.

    The only thing I have to say to them is:
    1. I'm with them on Patriarchy and I'd like to have a family. Go fix that broken system, women should hold on their part of the deal, then we can talk again.
    2. And remember the MRA approach didn't to anything. (Actually I've heard, mra is now labeled a hate group ? wtf ?)
    Sorry, the mgtow are correct on this one again: This crazy train has no breaks.

    No problem. Would be ofc interesting, if you find the rebuttal article again.
    I was just curious, exactly because of this reason. Everything, which collides with the official narrative has to be banned somehow. Where is the free speech in the west. I think it's one of the core values. But as people aren't allowed to discuss such things in open, I guarantee you, that this wont end well.

    The EU also pushes forward with these stupid content filtering laws. I really don't know what will happen, but I've got a really really bad feeling about it. Maybe even the yellow vests in France are already the beginning of it.

    Man, I totally sympathize with you. This rage shows in many different ways. And you've got also different "types" of it.
    I came from the PUA side, so guess I experienced it in two steps. But the second step was after finding mgtow, and that's where it really got me. I didn't show it that much in direct hostility though, but far more through my actions - also maybe this startup thing I tried, where I just went f*** this whole big corporate hamster wheel ...

    The "funny" thing is, I've got quite close contact with my parents, but they don't really understand my (b/c of their traditionalist views) and just think I've got "a crisis". Oh yeah ... crisis indeed ...

    So now back a bit to the journey, yesterday was quite good at first. After some days of nofap I feel so "refreshed" after getting up in the morning. That's one of the main indicators, that I'm making progress.
    But sadly I stayed up too late, was in the mgtow chats and ofc stumbled upon some lewd pics there and relapsed.
    Anyway, I try to get back on track and don't binge. Urges are here again, especially as I received some stressfull news. I'm often wondering, how other people deal with this. But on the other hand, I'm starting to understand, why so many are smoking and drinking alcohol ...

    I'm 90% though the book. It's really "ok" to that point. The main message was already at the beginning, the middle seems a bit more like rambling, but the last chapter sounds quite interesting as well, as he compares it to other addictions. I'll read that now.
    In general I still like it more than easyway, it gives clear directions.
    Easyway is a bit strange with this "litte/big monster" separation. I understand why it does that, but it's more "complex". I think it's only better on the reasons part, especially the society blaming part, which is completely true.

    So I wanted to create the thread about the books. But this one already exists: https://yourbrainrebalanced.com/for...quit-smoking-method-to-use-to-quit-pmo.36712/
    I guess I'll create the NBA Book thread also in this section.

    And to be honest, I also had some pangs in the last days to play one of my older games (Stronghold Crusader) and just gave in, and played it for some time ... It was a bit nostalgia, but also a part was this pang feeling.
    I realized I do really had and have some problems with impulse control. Before my twenties, I probably had some sort of gaming addiction (with the "usual teenage" PMO inbetween) and that shifted mostly to PMO after I was over 20 (as I had to focus on my studies so the gaming had to disappear).
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
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