Gray Bork's THIRD and FOREVER Journal

Discussion in 'Ages 40+' started by bork_gray, Nov 12, 2013.

  1. bork_gray

    bork_gray Beaker doesn't "bork" like the Chef.

    how long is FOREVER ?

    Well I'm on to a third journal thread. I'm thinking of this as a "real" one. The others were for play. For trial. For learning the systems here at YBR. This one's for keeps.

    The reason I'm doing this is not so much, that I'm re-starting or even starting anew. Instead, it's because I think of my past reboots and my past counters as successfully elapsed. I haven't relapsed, just elapsed, so to speak. So the counter in my signature will (soon) be is now set up to indicate a perpetual count, upwards, from the most recent point in time when I attended an "adult establishment" and will just count it upwards forever.

    My intention, on visiting these forums, was not (initially) to learn to do without internet porn forever. Although I know that internet porn is strongly related to my other intentions and hopes and dreams for my life, I am not focused on it in the manner that some people here have been or will be. So I'm slightly off-kilter from the majority of the forum (but aren't we all? that's the nice thing, isn't it!) in that I'm kinda OK with using porn, for various reasons. What I'm not OK with, is using strippers, prostitutes, or massage parlors, or in any other manner using the "crutch" for my social life, of attending adult-oriented businesses. I want to NEVER AGAIN get my sexual jollies from that sector. For a lot of my life I've wasted my time and sexual energy and attractiveness and availability on women who were selling me time for money, and of course I knew they were not selling me true intimacy, but it felt like that was the only way I could get any intimacy. Now that I'm looking at that behavior from the outside, I realize it was an addiction. I feel I am moving in the right direction (AWAY from it!) and that I'm controlling it more than it controls me. I have managed it so far, and it's becoming less and less difficult for me. I don't really think of strip clubs as tempting any more. I won't go tempting myself. But it's good that I'm not going.

    According to my financial records, the last time I ENTERED one of those establishments was May 7, 2013. I think I didn't have any "service" (lap dance, or more) there on that occasion, as evidenced by the weentsy amount of money that I spent there. I believe my last lap-dance experience, or similar, was even a few months earlier than May 7. But I'm going to consider May 7 as the starting date for a "forever" counter. My signature will soon say now says that it's been X days since I entered any inappropriate setting such as an adult-oriented business or similar. Or drove toward one. Driving around for prostitutes on a street-stroll counts as breaking the counter, a relapse, that would require a reset. (And, whether or not I actually HIRE the street-walker is beside the point. Going OUT there in a car to LOOK and get my motor revving, is against the rules in the first place.) Going into a strip club, a massage parlor, a boys-night-out setting, a location of any sort that is an adult-oriented business in which I pay money for the time of a young lady -- all against the rules. Period.

    So here I am, 190 days into a good development that I intend to make last FOREVER. Yup. Forever. You heard me. :) Do you think that's a bad idea? :eek:

    I will put here some links to my past journals, etc., just for my own edification and utility. I have four journals (a "pre-journal" thread of major posts; and first, second, and now this third, journal threads), and I have a thread about my counters, many of which have now gone defunct.

    Here is my counters thread:

    Here is my first major post, essentially my first journal:

    Here is my first "official" journal:

    Here is my second journal:

    Here is my third journal:
  2. nofapado

    nofapado Guest

    GB. you touch on the relationship between P and your sex addiction. I'm sure you discuss it in your other journals and post. I image that there is a strong link between the two. I wish you all the best.
  3. bork_gray

    bork_gray Beaker doesn't "bork" like the Chef.

    Thanks for your comments. I'm ticking up to day 200, I just noticed. That'll be pretty cool. This is

    Day 194

    since I've gone into an adult-oriented business.
  4. bork_gray

    bork_gray Beaker doesn't "bork" like the Chef.

    New Year

    Day 240

    At a happy and generalized stasis. My goal (if you're reading) is to get to forever on the question of how long it's been since I patronized (or visited or entered the front door of) an adult-oriented establishment. My quest for forever is at about 2/3rds of a year, so far, and going fine. There'd be plenty more to report if I wanted to record more specifics about my state of mind, etc., but since there don't seem to be any major challenges looming right now, and there haven't been any major downfalls or debacles, really all I want to say is quite simple: DOIN' JUST FINE in the New Year.

    Happy New Year to all of you, too!
  5. imout

    imout Active Member

    GB, that is awesome to hear. You are one of the guys who started around when I did (I think) . Its good to see you are on track. Keep us informed. Its always interesting to hear from others
  6. imout

    imout Active Member

    Hey GB. Ive just reread your intro above. Just my take/observation - in all modesty:
    Im in an SLAA group and we have addicts of various sexual activities. One of the stripper/prostitute guys has been coming for 2 years . He is doing well abstaining from hookers etc. But recently he looked quite devastated, they way people in the group look when they have something to confess. He had quietly built up an impressive porn taste. While he was battling his addiction for hookers he had medicated himself with porn. "to get over it for now" . quietly the frequency had crept up untill it became apparent to him that now porn was his problem.
    I personally have swapped my porn addiction with an obsession for relationship drama with XXX. Im a certified love addict in the SLAA group. All the energy of the porn addiction has slowly transferred into it.
    What Im saying is: Whatever works for you to get over your issues is valid and good. But it pays to keep a vigilant eye on any substitute behaviour like porn for example. 2-3 times a week, couple of hours each time and you are in danger territory.
  7. bork_gray

    bork_gray Beaker doesn't "bork" like the Chef.

    Your comments are appreciated. Indeed, I'm always aware that I'm potentially stepping into danger-territory any time I "allow" myself pornography usage. I haven't tabulated an anti-porn reboot here recently, for a couple of reasons. One is simply, that I am kinda moving away from this internet site and from forum-postings on the internet. Another reason is, that I did that, in the past, successfully (I feel), so I kind of feel like "been there done that." A bigger reason is, that my "main" target is, to get rid of paid-for-pleasure sexual activities, and I feel like the focus on pornography is actually a deflection from the more central issue of failed relationships. And finally, my best excuse -- I don't have a porn addiction. Honest! Really. :) I know, I know, it's always a tricky thing to say, especially if one is an admitted user. So, I say it only tongue-in-cheek.

    Anyway, I promise to you and to the rest of the forum, that my porn use is always under careful scrutiny and active oversight by me. It doesn't presently control me, and it doesn't presently damage other portions of my life. I recognize its potential to do so. For now, I give myself the right to use. I don't encourage this plan for ANY other forum members solely on the basis of my own experiences. But I do feel that there are some mis-steps in the "grand theory" of anti-pornography that is the foundation of this site and the brain-on-porn site. There's a little bit of junk-science in there, all that evolutionary psychology stuff. I tried to address it once in what I thought was an open manner but I ended up hearing too much reactionary backlash, and realized I was addressing a sacred cow instead of an idea in progress. So, I can go with the sacredness of the cow for now, for the benefit of the community and the stability of the forums. But be aware, I'm more of a thinking man than a praying man, so anything that's treated as sacred is probably going to be highly suspicious to me.

    Anyhow, simple version of the story is: first, the counter below (day 246 right now) records my time since entering an adult-oriented business or patronizing one on-line or whatever else would be against my rules forever; second, I don't have an anti-porn counter, but believe me, I'm not really using it much at all, and if I am, I frankly can't remember the last time I did so actively (there's always the accidental "whoops I went to this solitaire website but there was a hot chick in the banner-ad, so I had to resize the window" mistake; I don't count that as "using" although it does of course count as "looking" albeit without intent); third, thank you very much, anyone's concern on these forums is always appreciated.
  8. bork_gray

    bork_gray Beaker doesn't "bork" like the Chef.

    Well, day 287 of forever. Feels OK, nothing special. Thought I'd just say that I'm still sane and around and not off the wagon and ... ya know ... hi. ;D
  9. imout

    imout Active Member

    Hey GB, great to hear. Congrats for ongoing progress. Give as a report of how you are faring.
  10. imout

    imout Active Member

    How is Graybork? Are you doing OK?
  11. bork_gray

    bork_gray Beaker doesn't "bork" like the Chef.

    Hey all, I'm good. I'm sorry I haven't been here at the YBR community for a while. I'll post more in a little bit, if I get the opportunity. I haven't relapsed and I'm doing well and thanks to all for your interest. :)

    Today is day 371 which is


    since I visited an adult-oriented business, patronized one, or in any other manner broke my rules. I think the anniversary was in my mind subconsciously, because I was itching a little bit more than usual to attend a strip club. But I didn't relapse, and I don't intend to, ever, on that subject. Wow the money I've saved. Wow the sanity I've regained. And of course the journey is never over, and in fact feels more and more like it's just beginning. I'm pretty happy about this progress.
  12. Caoimhín

    Caoimhín Winter's coming...

    This is great! Your too busy living life. All is as it should be.
  13. bork_gray

    bork_gray Beaker doesn't "bork" like the Chef.

    So, I thought I'd make a "journal entry" in this my journal. Rather than just a REPORT about how I'm doing -- which, by the way, is generally very fine indeed, so don't worry -- but instead some long-winded thoughts about where I'm going, and stuff like that.

    Grammatical rubric: I use the quotation-marks liberally, often to indicate a catch-phrase or gnomic statement which I know is not a fair or accurate phrase. For example, in political discourse, I might say "The American Right Wing" and enclose it in quotes, in order to indicate NOT that I thought ALL members of that political affiliation were identical, but rather that I was generalizing. When you see the "quote marks" just go with it, and don't nit pick my discourse, OK? I know I'm often using rather inaccurate language (heck, when is language EVER accurate?) and I'm indicating my awareness of the inaccuracies by means of the quote-marks.

    Overview. For me, the biggest change in my life relative to porn-addiction and other addictive behaviors, came when I went back to school in my early 40s and got diagnosed with ADHD. I realized, through these developments, that there was indeed "something wrong" with me, that this "something" was identifiable and treatable, that it was worthy of sympathy and concern and really deserved to be addressed by professionals and by a true problem-solving approach, and that (most important) IT WASN'T MY FAULT. No matter how much I wanted to fix it, and no matter how "hard I tried to fix it," nevertheless I probably could not fix it all on my lonesome. This was news. Big news. It enabled change.

    I had, prior to this diagnosis and change, lived a peripatetic life. I had never held down a job for more than 18 months. I had a stupendous education and a great set of qualifications, but I still wasn't making more than $20,000 per year (I live in the USA) and although I was getting promoted, I wasn't getting salary increases, or greater responsibility, or even the ability to pay all my (reasonable) bills. I had had girlfriends, but they were always "the ones I had to go out with" rather than the ones I had WANTED to go out with. I felt a degree of desperation or necessity in all my dating choices -- "well," so I told myself, "there's a hot-looking one over there, and a friendly one over here, but I CAN'T go out with one of them, instead I HAVE to go out with this LESS DESIRABLE girl because that's the ONLY one available to me." I don't know where I got that attitude, or how accurate or inaccurate it was, but it certainly made me feel miserable. So, just like my jobs, my girlfriends were lasting 18 months. And I was hating the duration of both those things too -- jobs and girlfriends were miserable experiences, DURING the having of them. I was always glad to get rid of a job, get fired, have to move on. I was always looking for some way to hope that a better girl would pick me out, when I was dating some girl or other. I remember very few beginnings of relationships or jobs in which I thought to myself, "Wow, good deal, hope I can continue this." Rather, at all those beginnings, I was already thinking, "Golly, how did I get myself into THIS mess? I want out."

    With the diagnosis, I was able to link all these and a myriad other things together into one lump sum. I knew that I had been often viewed as irascible, with a heightened sense of fair play and a real distaste for injustice. This went back to my kindergarten days! I knew that I wasn't committed to any one course of action. I knew I wanted something better than what life was offering me. I knew that I hadn't yet found something that I felt comfortable identifying as "my own." I knew that sometimes people thought I was pissed off at them when I really wasn't, I was just acting antisocially gruff but unaware that I was coming off as antisocially gruff. I knew, among other things, that I was having to really really really try hard, just to get to work on time. And there was no such thing as outside-of-work activities. I had always wanted to be an actor, poet, writer, and do that stuff outside of work. But work took it all out of me. I went to the office at dawn, returned at dusk, did nothing in between but prepare for the next day. Exhausted, I bemoaned the fact that I was too tired to do anything that I cared about. Workplaces were stealing my lifetime from me. I hated that fact, but didn't know, to link it to all these other facts. And my High School Year Book candid quote says, that I was often collecting Red and Yellow Cards during soccer games -- penalties for misdeeds on the field. If you read this paragraph, you'll see a textbook description of a person with ADD or ADHD. Even the Red and Yellow Cards! I didn't have trouble with authority, I reasoned, I had trouble with idiots, and there were just too many people who were idiots who were also in authority.

    Now that I have a diagnosis, and a counselor, I'm happy to report, I'm moving forward. But a lot of the moving forward is not toward what I thought it would be, and a lot of it is much much too slow or indeterminately non-progressive at all. It's like, all I've done is find out WHAT is WRONG with me, but I haven't really become RIGHT yet.

    The addictions: One of my biggest coping mechanisms for these problems was, alcohol coupled with strip clubs. I went to adult-oriented businesses, mostly strip clubs, sometimes also prostitutes or massage parlors or other places where sexual services were available, quite regularly. I had this weird financial situation going on, where my family in general knew that I was failing at this that and the other job, they were nice middle class people who trusted that I was trying hard to keep good jobs and that I had been placed into a weird middle-generation between being able to do everything and being qualified to do nothing, so they were bankrolling me. So, if I had a job, I got some free money from my dad, or a grandfather's estate, or something. Or, if I didn't have a job, then my expenses plummeted (often I wouldn't keep a car, during those occasions) and the money that my family would share with me would dwindle, but not as much as my required payments out would disappear. So, it was actually profitable for me to lose work. And all that extra money was going down the drain, to a stripper or prostitute. All over the place, every city I ever lived in, I used the internet to slake the vice trade addiction. I never really did anything super-dangerous to my physical well-being, except on two memorable occasions. Mostly I was just going into a strip club, sitting and staring a the blinky lights, checking out the hot chicks, getting wasted on bourbon and Coke, and then getting lap dances or something more in the back room. I liked staring. I liked having the dancers sit in my lap and chat with me. It was the only female companionship that was "desirable enough" that I could find. The ugly chicks in my workplace were, 100% of them, too butt-fat and unappealing to be someone who could EVER get away with making money at a strip club as a nude dancer. The nude dancers were, to me, "of normal build." They were "hot enough" for me to be interested in them. So, I continued to patronize them, reasoning (and it's pretty accurate, in fact) that this was the "only way" that I could get my hands on women who were "hot enough" to be appealing to me.

    I probably lost $200,000 or $250,000, over the course of a 15-year-long fascination with strip clubs. There were periods in my life when all I did was plan my weekend around "mongering" or "adult entertainment." I made some airplane trips to Houston solely for that purpose. At my worst, I was driving extremely drunk up and down the highways near Memphis to get to the next exciting strip-club locale. I never got arrested. I never got involved with heavy drugs (aside from alcohol and tobacco). I never did anything violent and never put myself in the position of being at risk of being the victim of violence. But I spent a LOT of time and money getting my willie horned up and sometimes greased and played with. I don't pass moral judgment on whether or not prostitution is "right" or "wrong," a "victimless" crime or not. I think it's OK for some people in some circumstances, and I think it's utterly totally wrong for other people in other circumstances. Kind of like fire-arm ownership, abortion, driving faster than the speed limit -- it all depends on the context.

    But over time, I knew it was wrong FOR ME. It was wrong mostly because it was fueling an addiction that became a crutch. I had no girlfriends, or if I did, they were people who weren't attractive enough for me, who didn't have the chops (mostly, bodily smallness and fitness) required for stripper status. I was making no new friends in any town where I went. I used to have interests such as singing in choirs, and playing soccer, that I was no longer doing, and I was instead spending my time at strip clubs. I was getting recognized by bartenders and dancers, I had my favorites, that sort of thing. I knew that I should NOT go to the clubs, mostly because instead I should develop a love of life itself, not a need for strippers.

    And that's what it was, a NEED. I developed an ongoing sense of requirement that my free time be spent at strip clubs. It was odd, how going to a club then exacerbated my desire to go to a club again. And again and again. I would bundle up a lot of cash in my pocket, and that in itself was exciting. I would pick out the hottest girl to have a lap dance with, and that was sexually enticing. Depending on the club and the city, I would read up in advance on which girls or locations were likely to offer further extra activities and for what price. The internet was a booming resource for all this information. By about 1998, you could read up on exactly what girls at what clubs offered what services for what prices. I was a careful, though obsessive, consumer. It was like some people getting addicted to E-Bay, and just having to make another transaction, and another. But I wasn't buying Beanie Babies, I was buying blowjobs, or just time with hot young girls.

    The cure: Well, was it a cure? I don't know. My "cure" was, getting Prozac. I presently have a diagnosis, and a set of pills. I don't think that most of the people at YBR go about it the same way that I have done. I take the generic equivalent of Prozac, and I take the generic equivalent of Adderall. I have been taking a drug similar to either Adderall or Ritalin for about five years now. The Prozac-equivalent I started two years ago. I find them remarkably helpful.

    One of the things that they do, is slake the neediness. I used to NEED everything. I NEEDED to try the newest fanciest restaurant in town. I NEEDED to go to the major rock festival in town at least six out of the seven days that it ran. I NEEDED to win at poker on-line. I NEEDED to play hard-core every game I played, including soccer. I NEEDED to win. This need had its advantages -- when I was athletically active, I pushed myself, to the point that for most of my young adulthood I was remarkably physically fit. I was a small person (still am!) but could run forever and ever. What genetic disadvantages I had been born with, I NEEDED to overcome. And I did. Asthma is a big one, and I was busy proving I was not asthmatic all the time. Why? Because I NEEDED to.

    With Prozac, I no longer need. I don't need to work out, I don't need to go to a strip club. I don't need to have a hot chick in my lap. I have lust, still, and desire for attractive women, but (and this pisses me off) I'm much more likely to get laid precisely because I have literally no need to get laid. I don't actually get laid by means of my own intercession and action -- that has never happened in my life, and I still don't know why, and I greatly resent women for the way that they seem to deliberately go out of their way to make the worst choices possible, especially when I consider myself to be a better choice rather than a worse choice, and that is an ongoing debate in my mind. Why can't I get a good girlfriend? What's wrong with me? But now, that's not a NEED, it's just an inquiry, an odd point to discuss, something that an investigative journalist might help me with. Previously it was something that required a shrink and a priest and maybe even a surgeon. Now, it's just, ya know, kinda quizzical, odd, that this is the case. Then, it had been, a WOW THIS SUCKS ROCKS kind of feeling.

    The prognosis: So, consequently, with Prozac, I am left free to avoid the strip clubs. I like that fact. I save a lot of money. I have the potential to gain beneficial social interactions with people whom I might respect. I can kind of get my life back. I have not, however ACTUALLY gotten beneficial social interactions. I don't have a better job. I don't actually make a lot more money than I used to, and I still get sick of my jobs at about 18 months into them or less. I now have a Law Degree and so I pretend to be a working lawyer, but I don't want an office job, I hate the Firm politics and so forth, all the attendant stuff that goes with having to go to work at a regular time. This is typical of people with ADHD -- the instant it's "regular," we feel disgust at it just like at a bowel movement. We can't help it. It doesn't make us BAD people to dislike the American workplace, but it does make us difficult to fit into the American workplace. I should of course overcome this propensity by means of entrepreneurship -- if I'm free of the cubicle and the employer, I'm free to make money on my own initiative, right?

    But that is what I lack. I don't give a shit about initiative. I don't like business. I don't "believe" in it. Not in that way that entrepreneurs have to believe. I just want to take on a few interesting cases, make a decent living, abandon my calling when it's time to abandon. I am a peripatetic nomad. This is WHO I AM and I can't really change it, not even with Prozac. The Prozac has been great for reducing my NEED to go to strip clubs -- as you see from my counter, I'm over a year now, since I attended any type of adult-oriented business, and that's great! But it doesn't do anything else for me but keep me out of the strip clubs. I have no desire to go to a strip club. That's good. But I also have no desire to do anything else either. I like going to my twice-weekly drawing sessions. We have nude models (and no, it's not a problem, I don't think in terms of sexy-sexy strip-club-type mental images at all) and my skill at Life Drawing is getting better and better. I want to play my instruments. Scales. Just scales over and over. I don't really want to make music, I just want to make scales, fast ones. I'm almost autistic in that manner, in that I will listen to Bach or Mozart but the only noises I want to make are rapid accurate Do-Re-Mi arrangements.

    So, I don't take on longer-term projects, and I don't "have a life" in any sense of the words. I live with my parents, which is fine, since they're in their 70s and need help around the house. I can't manage my own rent, and for the past calendar year I really haven't taken on more than one paying client. And that made me maybe $100 total. I like knowing a lot about the law, and I'm licensed in two States thanks to my super-duper-recall and intellect. "Too smart for his own good" or "Sherlock complex," people would say. But that doesn't make me happy. That just means I'm different, weird, someone they won't marry or fuck or hire or pay. People COULD say, "Look, there's a guy who will probably not commit any crime, probably votes responsibly, isn't it nice how he takes care of his mom, he's helping with the yard work for his dad, but what a no-account loser he is, doesn't have a job, can't keep a job even though he has a Master's degree from an Ivy-League-Caliber institution plus he has a Law Degree and is licensed in two States." Or they COULD say, as I hope to try to say, "The current system doesn't work. Look at how much talent and ability I muster, and yet the world doesn't really want me. The American work system requires too many mindless drones and not enough intelligent people, and I'm very very bad at being a mindless drone." I feel similarly about women -- the dichotomy between "He's weird, he freaks me out, I can't figure him out," and "He's hot, because he's not boring like all the other guys" is embodied in me.

    It leaves me as an outsider, and therefore unhappy. I can't "fake" it. I know that you have to "fit in" to the workplace. I try to "fit in." They catch me out. Usually it takes about two weeks -- "you're not very happy with this job are you?" I get asked. Well duh, I'd like to say, is ANYBODY ever happy with a job? But you're supposed to "fake" it. I guess I'm a bad actor. Similarly with women. "Hey, want a date" seems to me to be tantamount to "Now you no longer need to be interested in me, because I have proven to you that you have forced me into wanting a date with you and therefore ..." and it goes around and around and there's little or no solution.

    So, Prozac good. Got me out of strip clubs. But initiative? Success? Change? REAL change? Not much. I'm out of strip clubs, and that much IS real change, and I'm proud of it, in so far as I can take any credit at all. But I want more. I want to be a real person, with a chance to date a girl I think of as a hottie, with a chance to get a real income that is kinda impressive and that is from work that makes me happy. I want ... ya know ... success? Is that the word? I don't have it. I can't find it. ADHD, or whatever else it is that I've got, is really in the way. I think a lot of people who know me, just are delighted that I've turned the corner by means of this diagnosis, at all. They were thinking, "Wow, I didn't know WHAT the Furk was wrong with him, for so long, he is so nice and friendly and capable but nobody will hire him or date him so I don't get it?" Now, they can think, "Oh, he's on the road to getting back to normal now that he has fixed his ADHD." Well, that latter think is wrong. I'm not on a road at all. All I've done, is get OFF the strip-club road. But I haven't gotten ON the income road or the get-laid road or the pretty-girls-and-great-jobs road or even the get-out-of-your-mom's-house road.

    The summary: I would say, that I'm doomed forever to live in mom's basement, but we live in a house that doesn't have a basement. I'm in the guest room, basically. Happy to be out of strip clubs. Yup, forever, as this journal's title attests. I intend to keep it that way forever. But not happy, at all, with further prognosis. Very disappointed. You can't just take an pill and become a better person ...
  14. a short guy

    a short guy Well-Known Member

    Howdy Gray Bork,
    Glad to hear from you and that you're strip club free.

    Regarding the power/powerlessness of pills, Lexapro temporarily took the edge off my depression, but I'm having to continue to struggle and figure out day to day how to become a "better person".

    Wishing you well.
  15. imout

    imout Active Member

    Hey Gray Bork,
    you know I often take the liberty to be frank, This very long entry of yours kind of feels like an invitation to make a general comment as you have written in broad terms. It feels like a summary of your journey.

    What I really get stuck on is this: I wonder whether its a blessing that you have been diagnosed with ADHD . Because now all issues in your life have a name and an inevitability . Its a physiological disorder therefore its not a matter of choices or psychological causalities (childhood issues). attitude, beliefs etc dont come into it. However medication is readily dished out and , words like treatment replace responsibility and so on.
    I have seen it with so many parents of difficult children. When they are diagnosed the parents sigh with relief. We are absolved, not our doing. As a matter of fact we are powerless. Fate has dished us a bad hand but we arent to blame. Whatever goes wrong in the kids upbringing, whichever way we may have failed him has no bearing anymore. The kid is sick and thats that. Give me that quick-fix pill.

    I see more benefit in looking at addiction as a matter of choices and responsibility. The choices are based on beliefs and stories we tell ourselves and these in turn are based on childhood experiences. This doesnt only apply to addiction , it applies to all our life management.

    Most guys here have stated time and again that the real recovery starts when porn is gone. when we have to face the fact that we have mismanaged our lifes , that we are stuck in corners, underachieving, isolated, introvert and all the rest of it, because we have acted out lifelong coping mechanisms that simply are wrong. Most of us have learnt that that isnt inevitable, its within our grasp to change and improve. This forum has accumulated a trove of insights about how we bullshit ourselves into being failures and thus become failures . There is a wealth of talk on how to recover from that. People here are in every stage of that journey. It works and its the only thing that works, because its the only thing you have any influence on: YOURSELF.

    It is also a strategy of empowerment. It means we take responsibility and become accountable for our actions. We then actively change our thinking and behaviour. We are in charge as we always should have been. We basically reparent ourselves making up for the shit that made us dysfunctional in the first place.

    Gray, Im sorry , but blaming ADHD and previous lack of prozac on your sex addiction, i dont think that gets you off the hook. At the same time you blame womanhood and society for you not fitting in and not being able to hold a relationship or job or making sufficient money. Blaming things out of your control isnt going to make you happier. You can take happy- pills or work on your acceptance to become a bit more content but you will still not fit in, you wont hold a job and women arent going to swoon for you. As a matter of fact, i found it important for myself- who tended to be seriously arrogant about all this- to ram home the message to myself that the world hadnt been waiting for me when I was born.Life doesnt come with entitlement. I have to create my own space on this planet. And I can only do it if i am agreeable to others. If i want to be accepted and for people to make a wee space for me then I have to do the work.

    Man, Gray. PLEASE!!!! you divide women into attractive (hot enough to get you going) and undesirable. You want a woman of a certain value for which you are the judge. She has to be somewhere on your scale to be worthy. Well, man, if women judge you the same way, where would you be on your own scale. Youve rubbished a lot of women, who made themself vulnerable to you by becoming you girlfriends. they trusted you and gave you a chance and you didnt find them worthy.

    Isnt it obvious that you will never be happy that way. You will never get a worthy partner, because there is no such thing. People are just people and their value on any scale is equal. There is no "greater than" or" lesser than" . That is simply a function of our warped self esteem. Believe me I have lived my life with the greater than-lesser than attitude. alternating between arrogant and selfdeprecating. In reality, no woman is too intelligent or beautiful for me and noone is not worthy of my attention either.

    When Im authentic and in tune with myself I dont need this "grading" of people. I just approach them as individuals. If a woman doesnt find me an attractive proposition than that either is just the way it is and out of my control, OR I am not coming across very well. Maybe my behaviour is seriously lacking. Maybe Im self conscious, maybe I talk shit, am drunk, too timid, too loud, whatever, but it may actually be my fault.

    Sorry Gray, Im aware I may have stepped over the line here, but blaming stuff outside of our control for our bad choices isnt going to help our recovery and it did press my buttons.
  16. Caoimhín

    Caoimhín Winter's coming...

    Gray Bork

    The world does indeed have many elements that are out of our control. I struggled / struggle with the death of my loved ones and indeed, for many years refused to allow myself to really contemplate what it all meant. Coming out on the the otherside of very difficult experiences where I did lose very important people in my life, I guess it should not surprise you to see me now write that

    «Death is not under my control. Death happens to everyone.»

    My years of refusing (or to put it more compassionately: inability) to accept that it would happen to those near and dear to me were in fact futile, self-destructive, and regressive. It put me into a pit where, gradually and more and more, I became incredibly stuck. With roots it grew into other facets of my life slowly controlling me and distorting my view of the world and of living.

    I still do struggle with this but am learning that if I want to be a vicitim of death, it will happen before I die.
  17. bork_gray

    bork_gray Beaker doesn't "bork" like the Chef.

    No, your response is welcome, and didn't cross any lines into any zone of impropriety or unreasonability. Thanks for your thoughts.

    I would disagree with you, though. Duh, you knew I'd do that. :)

    Here's what I didn't make clear in my recent long post (though I allude to the concept, and later on here in THIS post, I'll show you how). I didn't make clear, that I had spent a LOT of my life trying for real change WITHOUT getting a diagnosis. All that time that I spent going to strip clubs, was time spent NOT WANTING to go to strip clubs. Having short relationships that always ended at 18 months, or that I wanted OUT of before I even got INTO them? I also was hoping against hope, that somehow this NEXT one would be better, different, I'd figure it out and change, learn how to not be the broken person I felt like I was being. But I never found the capacity to fix the problems, precisely because I did not KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEMS WERE. But now that I have a diagnosis I can at least start to learn about the identity of the problems. All through that time I kept telling myself, "I just have to try harder and it will all come out better eventually." Greater effort never brought about greater reward. I never succeeded at all, when I was alone and uninformed.

    I actually don't exactly "buy" my diagnosis (and, remember what I said about the "quote marks" too, OK?). I think it's CLOSE to accurate to say that I have ADHD, but it's not actually "true" about me. It's only something that's helpful, not something that's utterly factual and right. I have characteristics that don't fit the typical mold of an ADHD-sufferer; and I want to expand the psychological community's grasp of what my ADHD-like symptoms feel like. I want to expand FROM the diagnosis, not reduce down TO that diagnosis.

    These two concepts -- that I tried and tried but kept on failing to change; and that I think of my diagnosis as a starting point, from which to begin to gain self-knowledge, not an ending point at which to cease seeking self-knowledge -- I hope alleviate your concerns about me. I hope that coupled with those two ideas, you can see that what I'm really saying is not "Thank goodness I have ADHD, that means I don't have to try hard or learn about myself or be honest, I just have to listen to the doctor, kinda do what he says, and take a buncha pills." Instead, what I'm saying is rather "Thank goodness I've learned about what ADHD is like, that means I don't have to feel guilty for having failed for the period of my life when I didn't know anything about it, and now I am SET FREE to try hard but try hard in a NEW WAY that may indeed have results and benefits." I'm armed with knowledge, categories, the combined awarenesses of the psychological community. Before my diagnosis, I didn't know that people who got thrown out of soccer games would ALSO want 18-month-long romantic relationships, for example. Why would that ever link together in an average guy's mind, it's so counter-intuitive. The two ideas -- red card? bad with girlfriends? -- seem to have so LITTLE to do with each other. But now that I've read some books on ADHD and on similar other syndromes and self-help regimes, I've come to realize how they DO relate. And I've therefore begun to have insight and thus capacity to change.

    Prior to the diagnosis, the possibility of insight was actually closed off from me. I could not have "figured it all out" on my own. There's just no way. I would have been a jumble of mute and rather unrelated random observations about myself. Now, I have at least a sort of rubric on which to hang things. "Oh look I do badly with my mom when she does X or Y. Well, that doesn't have squat to do with ADHD, I need to look into that," is a possible new interpretation of an interaction I might have. But also "Oh look I am doing that same old thing about teaching other drivers a lesson" is a possible interpretation of some action I might take, and the next step can now be "Golly, just like the ADHD textbook," rather than just "I always do that. I wish I didn't."

    One of the most important things about ADHD suffering is, that it FEELS LIKE you're trying hard already. And indeed I was trying hard. Trying very very hard. But trying to do the wrong thing. So, it's a bit of a trick-disease or trick-condition. First, it makes you feel frustrated about life. And then in a circular way, you feel frustrated about not being able to get out of the feeling of frustration. You try really hard to change, but the feeling of having to always try hard is, in itself, one of the things you want to change. Thus, there's probably no way "out" of the circular feelings and reasoning, unless you get some kind of outside help. You have to get SOMETHING to tell you, at the OUTSET, "Hey, your PROBLEM is, in and of itself, the exact fact that you can't solve your own problem." That's how ADHD comes back around on itself, from the frustration and try-hard-hard-harder-HARDER-yeesh points of view.

    How did I allude to the concept? Look at this sentence from my previous post -- "No matter how much I wanted to fix it, and no matter how "hard I tried to fix it," nevertheless I probably could not fix it all on my lonesome." Where I went from there, in the previous post, was this -- "This was news. Big news. It enabled change." But I could just as easily have instead stated, "I didn't know, that I had been trying to do the wrong thing all along. But now that I got the diagnosis, I learned that there was something ELSE to try to do."

    So, for me, IMOUT, you're actually suggesting that I do what I feel like I am setting out to do. That is, develop an independent and self-aware view of my own foibles and failings, accept responsibility for past choices, and make choices better in the future. Without knowledge of my condition of (something akin to) ADHD, I would have continually TRIED AND TRIED to accept responsibility for the WRONG parts of my past choices, those parts that I really had no control over. With diagnosis, I now know, I should say "Hey you're trying and trying to do THE USELESS PART of the change. Try something ELSE." But I couldn't have ever figured that out on my own. I needed to KNOW what the ADHD-like symptoms were, and how they link among one another, and a host of other ideas that have been thought up by smart people in the psychological community. I needed to find all of that out before I could go about picking a better and different aspect of my past and future choices to take ownership over.

    Here's a metaphor. It's like asking a drunk to stop drinking. A smart drunk might figure out, "Hey, I get woozy when I'm drunk. If I keep in mind that wooziness is related to alcohol use, then every time I am woozy I will know that I have drunk too much." But the thing is, drunk people aren't smart! So instead, they're likely to say to themselves, "Hey, I get woozy when I'm drunk. I should stop acting woozy. Why can I not make myself less woozy? I don't GET IT. This is very very frustrating, because no matter how hard I try to ACT SOBER, I simply cannot get myself to stop stumbling around, talking with slurred speech, and acting woozy! Dangit! I'm failing AGAIN at stopping drinking!" The problem is, that latter mistake lacks awareness of the causation. It doesn't link alcohol to the drunk behaviors. Instead, it just expects the actor to CHOOSE to be less addled. He can't. Not until there's less alcohol in his bloodstream. So, if he remains unenlightened, and never crosses over from the latter mistake to the former, more educated point of view, then he never can fix himself.

    It takes something to break out of that cycle, the cycle in which the problem itself is the thing which shields our eyes from identifying what the problem is. See what I mean?

    So, I intend to own all my past choices, but own them with knowledge of the parts of them that were beyond my control and the parts of them that were within my control. I feel horrible, guilty, very bad, for the ways I spent time with past girlfriends (and it wasn't as bad as all that, the way you surmise) without having the capacity to commit to them. But I don't beat myself up the same way, as I would without the first inkling of knowledge of my condition.

    And what is my condition? It's not really a "pure" ADHD, I think. I think it's more "a buncha stuff that relates to ADHD-spectrum conditions." And there's the childhood brain trauma, the adulthood without diagnosis, the social crutch-use of bad social opportunities replacing good, etc. etc.. I don't intend to opt out of valid ownership and investigation of all of that.

    Thanks again for your comments, IMOUT. Have I described how I agree with you well enough? :)
  18. bork_gray

    bork_gray Beaker doesn't "bork" like the Chef.

    This is worth remembering, each and every day. Thanks for your thoughts. Glad your own struggle is moving forward at your pace, too ...
  19. bork_gray

    bork_gray Beaker doesn't "bork" like the Chef.

    But which pill did you take to make yourself taller? ::)
  20. a short guy

    a short guy Well-Known Member

    Apparently PMO-ing temporarily stunted my growth, glad I chose to end that habit.

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