Criticism of NoFap® and YBOP™

Discussion in 'Pornography Addiction' started by Psyfer, Aug 12, 2019.

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  1. Psyfer

    Psyfer New Member

    Firstly, I wish to respectfully make it clear that I am not a troll. I have signed up to engage in a meaningful discussion on NoFap® and YBOP™ in addition to the science related to so-called “pornography addiction”.

    YBOP™ was spawned by an extremely disingenuous and opportunistic capitalist (Gary Wilson) who posseses highly questionable professional credentials. I contend that Gary Wilson, above all, is only concerned about Gary Wilson; I’ll leave it at that. NoFap® is a registered trademark of NoFap LLC (i.e, a for-profit business corporation). NoFap® and YBOP™ adherents share rather nauseating terms including “reboot” and “PMO”. In addition, these followers appear to accept — without question — pseudoscientific and subjective anecdotal evidence in relation to the neurochemistry of viewing pornography and the psychophysiological effects of masturbation.

    It is well-established in the scientific and medical literature that compulsive masturbation and compulsive pornography can cause serious harm to an individual, both psychologically and physiologically. However, neither DSM-V nor WHO’s ICD-11 presently classify compulsive masturbation and compulsive pornography consumption as addiction disorders. This is because there is not enough evidence to classify them as such at present (within the strict medical definition of “addiction”, that is). WHO now recognises “compulsive sexual behaviour” as an official medical disorder, however.

    My view is as follows: it is obvious that some individuals have created an extremely deleterious situation because of their excessive pornography use, such as the compulsive viewing of CP and/or snuff porn. For example, if a person who compulsively views, and masturbates to, porn has escalated from very softcore porn to extreme paraphilic porn — such as CP and/or necrosadistic porn (in addition to acquiring erectile dysfunction, dysorgasmia and/or anorgasmia) — then this clearly constitutes a set of serious medical issues that need to be addressed “PROPERLY” (i.e., not via this NoFap® and YBOP™ nonsense). If I were in this situation, I would seek out all of the proper medical channels possible (e.g., psychosexual counselling, psychiatry and urology).

    Looking forward to receiving some replies.
     
  2. Doper

    Doper Member

    I don't know much about Gary Wilson or NoFap, but I sure as shit know that if one wants to be an entrepreneur, there are much better avenues than selling a few tshirts and mugs that say "people over porn" and fapstronaut" like Nofap seems to do (would you wear that?), unless they have something other than that I don't know. Yourbrainonporn.com sells a kindle book for like 5 bucks, and I'm sure whatever information is in that is freely available on the site. So your first point, sorry to say, is laughable. I'm not defending these people, just from a financial standpoint it takes 5 seconds to realize it doesn't make sense, and even if it did, if there's a market for it, great, they aren't forcing you to buy anything.
    If someone started selling a supplement today that gets you rebooted noticeably faster, I'd buy it by the pallet, but I don't think it's possible as I've tried most everything there is.

    Second point. I couldn't get my dick hard for real women and they didn't arouse me at all, didn't get morning erections, and could hardly hold an erection to porn in the end, until I had stopped all PMO (sorry about the nauseating term, pal) PERFECTLY for an extended period at the ripe old age of 27. Then all that shit worked perfectly. Then I jumped back into porn thinking I could dabble without reacquiring erectile dysfunction, but unfortunately, it happened a fuck of a lot faster than I anticipated it ever could. So sadly I again couldn't get hard for women and morning erections went away (you can't exactly fake or imagine the latter can you? A doctor can't say: Oh it's just anxiety that's causing you to wake up without an erection). So at this time I do not have the erectile function and libido that I would like and did have for a time (the only time my dick ever worked in my whole life was when I stopped watching porn) and have been trying to reboot rather unsuccessfully for an amount of time I'd rather not say though it would make my point stronger. YOU KNOW WHY?.....BECAUSE I CAN'T SEEM TO STOP FUCKING UP AND CONTINUOUSLY RELAPSE TO FUCKIN PORN....Porn, the shit that has fucked my life up worse than anything else (and any other "REAL" addictive drug), and I can't stop it. Can you imagine something gives you erectile dysfunction and you don't get aroused by women and feel dead inside, and you know that's what's causing it and it causes you so much anguish but YOU KEEP FUCKING UP.....well I don't know what else could perfectly sum up that shitshow than the word ADDICTION. And it doesn't matter if YOU believe in porn induced erectile dysfunction. I do. And lot's of others do, and we can't stop doing the thing WE think is causing it. Addiction.
    As well I've habitually used many other substances the literature states are addictive, and they were all an utter cakewalk to quit compared to this.
    I'd like to add I have no moral problem with porn, I'm not religious, in fact I'm quite anti-religious. It just clearly gets you high and makes you feel dead inside after extended use just like all other addictive drugs.

    Now I have a question for YOU Psyfer. Why would you waste time with this? Who gives a shit what some deluded dumbasses on some forum in the far out fringes of the net are doing or wasting our lives with?
    Maybe you could flesh out your qualms with Wilson and Nofap, as they seem intentionally vague.

    (sigh), why did I waste my time replying to this...
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  3. Gil79

    Gil79 Seize the day

    So that we don't have to ;). Well said! Nothing to add.
     
  4. Psyfer

    Psyfer New Member

    I do not feel as though I am wasting my time. Furthermore, I do not know you as a person; therefore, I have not prejudged you ⁠— nor anyone else on this forum ⁠— as a "deluded dumbass" (to use your language).

    I am pleased for you that the period of masturbation abstinence reversed the erectile dysfunction. If it were me, however, I would prefer to be under the care of a urologist, so that the erectile dysfunction could be monitored by a qualified medical professional.

    It is obvious that you suffer from a severe compulsion to view pornography. I do not doubt, at all, that porn CAN BE addictive to certain people. To say that it is addictive to everyone is extremely simplistic; that is, some people can take it or leave it. Moreover, there are various classifications and genres of porn. For example, pictures of women in sexy lingerie can be considered as extremely soft porn, which is, in my opinion, completely harmless. At the other end of the scale, sadistic child porn can be considered as profoundly taboo and dangerous hardcore porn (i.e., the worst possible form of porn on every level), which causes incalculable damage to all involved.

    All of this bullshit about "rebooting" and abstaining from "PMO" being the magical panacea has absolutely no basis in reality. If, for example, your porn addiction has escalated to sadistic child porn (or similarly grotesque hardcore porn), then this needs immediate medical attention. I will also add that "rebooting" and abstaining from "PMO" does not seem to have worked at all well for you. You're presently on "Day 22" of this unproven system and you sound extremely fucked up to me. Why not just work hard to get well properly via proven medical channels; e.g., psychosexual therapy, addiction couselling and urology, for example? These are very serious medical issues we're discussing. Therefore, having a support network of medical professionals around you will make this tough journey much easier to deal with.
     
  5. Pete McVries

    Pete McVries Active Member

    https://www.reddit.com/r/wowthanksimcured/

    Countless rebooters have gone to urologists to check themselves if they have a medical condition that causes PIED. Myself included. By the way, my urologist knew about the dangers of porn and encouraged me to continue rebooting. But, you convinced me, he is probably in the extremely disingenuous and opportunistic capitalist's pocket :eek:. If only he had a billion dollar product to sell like the extremely sincere and kindhearted porn industry. Or, you know, the altruistic and philanthropical pharma industry which makes a shit ton of paper with dick pills. Nah, it's the capitalist pig Gary who needs to burned at the stake :rolleyes:

    You are not here for a discussion, you just want to denounce Gary's work and him as a person. I guess, it's a mere coincidence that people like you spawn after Gary made it public that he is under constant attack by powerful pro porn lobbyists who want to basically ruin his life by spreading fake news and conduct ongoing smear campaigns.

    :)
     
  6. doneatlast

    doneatlast Active Member

    I love your use of citations to studies, and good interpretations thereof. Especially when you mention Gary's "highly questionable credentials". Your elaborations and clear, academic analysis of the data really resounds with me.

    How much money do you THINK he's making off of this? A cheap ebook, some free websites, the occasional speaking gig? A drop in the bucket compared to what pornographers make. I doubt it would even be enough to live off of. I was addicted for years (yes it is real), had no sexual trauma to lead to it except the normal human condition bag of goods, and fought hard to quit. Once I quit, I have spent a lot of time talking to others in similar situations who are trying to break free. It is real, I've experienced it first hand, and have talked to hundreds of guys dealing with it. How much money do you think *I* am making off of this to come on here and spread all of this?

    Treating the DSM like it is an infallible document is very, very dangerous. More and more professionals are taking stuff in there with a grain of salt as they see how often politics and money morph what lies in its pages. Besides, we're talking about a very, very new phenomenon, and the bedrock of professional diagnostics lagging a bit behind shouldn't be a sign of suspicion for anything except a large profession moving slowly. On a similar note, my World Book Encyclopedia from the 80s says nothing about high speed internet porn addiction... must not be a real thing, eh? It will eventually be in the DSM, it will just take time and hard work.

    I like introducing yourself with a tone that identifies yourself not as a troll but as someone seeking "meaningful discussion", but you aren't offering anything to discuss. You're readily dismissing what there is tons of data to support, without offering any supporting documentation of your own. You are offering opinion, conjecture, and accusations without any meaningful arguments, syllogisms, or data. You're relying on a tone of gravity and condescension to make it seem like you have any valid points.

    Incidentally, this is how many conspiracy theories thrive - chiding silly people believing that we landed on the moon, that vaccines are safe, that the world is round, whatever it may be. It is an "emperor's new clothes" scenario where a core party simply tries to make it seem like the stupid, ignorant route to contradict it, and somehow making itself immune to needing basic proofs. Foster enough of an atmosphere where it seems like the "smart people" all believe one thing, and everyone goes along with it.
     
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  7. Universal

    Universal Member

    What does Gary Wilson sell, or advertise?

    You know, besides the $5-10 book which is 90% comprised by the free material on his website?

    Not sure where Gary being an opportunist and capitalist fits into your picture.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
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  8. Doper

    Doper Member

    Psyfer, if you are truly here posting this nonsense by your own volition, then I'm afraid it is you who should be monitored by a qualified medical professional. It's alright, nothing to be ashamed of.

    If that is not the case, I'm pretty sure that if anyone would enjoy working with Psyfer, you can put your resume in at: https://www.mindgeek.com/careers/
     
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  9. Big Lebowski

    Big Lebowski Member

    You dont have to escalate to illegal porn for things to go seriously bad with your mental and physical health with porn.

    Just google the studies that are available on this matter and you'll see it is just as bad as hard drugs.
     
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  10. Psyfer

    Psyfer New Member

    You want me to provide an academic analysis of the data pertaining to Gary Wilson's disingenuous character? Okay, let us start with the content at the following link: https://retractionwatch.com/2018/06...retract-controversial-paper-on-internet-porn/. It appears as though Wilson et al. have been accused of scientific misconduct in the following obscure journal publication: https://www.mdpi.com/2076-328X/6/3/17.

    At which point did I assert or imply that the DSM is "an infallible document"?

    There exists "tons of data" to support the idea that "rebooting" and "PMO" abstinence are miraculous cures for the following conditions: compulsive pornography use, paraphiliac disorders, compulsive masturbation, erectile dysfunction and anorgasmia? Really? I HIGHLY doubt the veracity of your assertions. Please point me to reputable peer reviewed publications, such as those published in Nature, Elsevier and/or Springer journals (i.e., in which high quality controlled studies have been conducted on the subject).

    Although not well understood in the field of neuroscience, it is speculated by scientists in this field that the release of a combination of monoamine neurotransmitters (dopamine, serotonin and adrenaline/epinephrine) and oxytocin are involved in sexual arousal and orgasm. Therefore, I agree that porn use has the potential to cause severe addiction in some individuals; I have never denied that. However, similar to other forms of addiction, such as heroin addiction or methamphetamine addiction, compulsive sexual behaviour typically requires well-established medical intervention unless, of course, you're gifted with exceptional self-control and determination.
     
  11. doneatlast

    doneatlast Active Member

    Your first link leans heavily on the work of a quite poor scientist who travels inappropriately in the porn industry, likely taking large amounts of money from them, who has also tried to intimidate and defame people who oppose porn. This is not reliable for anything but gossip. For more information, check this list of points Gary has in his own defense, taken from http://www.rebootnation.org/forum/index.php?topic=17372.0 :

    1) My 16 tweets about the illegal trademark infringement by "RealYourBrainOnPorn", and Nicole Prause attempting to trademark both "YourBrainOnPorn" & "YourBrainOnPorn.com" - https://twitter.com/YourBrainOnPorn/status/1143655661042982912

    2) Aggressive Trademark Infringement Waged by Porn Addiction Deniers (https://www.realyourbrainonporn.com/experts) - https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/rel...om-engage-in-trademark-infringement-campaign/

    3) Nicole Prause’s Unethical Harassment and Defamation of Gary Wilson & Others - https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/rel...assment-and-defamation-of-gary-wilson-others/

    4) Nicole Prause’s Unethical Harassment and Defamation of Gary Wilson & Others (page 2) - https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/rel...sment-and-defamation-of-gary-wilson-others-2/

    5) October, 2018: Ley & Prause devise an article purporting to connect Gary Wilson, Alexander Rhodes and Gabe Deem to white supremacists/fascists (Prause attacks Rhodes & Nofap in the comments section) - https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/rel...d-defamation-of-gary-wilson-others-2/#fascist

    6) Ongoing – David Ley & Prause’s ongoing attempts to smear YBOP/Gary Wilson, Gabe Deem/RebootNation, and Nofap/Alexander Rhodes by claiming links with neo-Nazi sympathizers - https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/rel...-and-defamation-of-gary-wilson-others-2/#nazi

    7) Donald Hilton defamation lawsuit against Nicole Prause: Downloadable PDF’s of Hilton lawsuit, exhibits, and affidavits by 9 other Prause victims - https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/rel...e-prause-17-page-complaint-on-may-8-2019-pdf/

    8 - Our debunking of the RealYBOP so-called "Research Page" - https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/rel...-propaganda-pieces/pro-porn-science-alliance/

    9) Aggressive Trademark Infringement Waged by Porn Addiction Deniers (www.realyourbrainonporn.com) - https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/rel...om-engage-in-trademark-infringement-campaign/

    10) Cease and Desist Letter to Nicole R Prause & Liberos LLC for Illegal Trademark Infringement of Your Brain On Porn and www.yourbrainonporn.com - https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/rel...ur-brain-on-porn-and-www-yourbrainonporn-com/

    As for your second link, I fail to see how it shows anything bad about Gary Wilson, except that he's arguing a point that you clearly don't like.

    For citations of the validity of the science of porn addiction, check out Gary's video, here: He cites studies as he goes, all are far more valuable than anything you're talking about, and breaks down the studies that seem to deny the science, showing how they were either poor studies without control groups (redundant since no study sans control group is worth very much), or a closer look at data actually supports the science of porn addiction.

    You cited a lack of discussion of porn addiction in the DSM as a slam-dunk, conclusive argument against its validity. This is only possible if the DSM is considered infallible. If the DSM isn't infallible, or at least not on a very, very high pedestal, then an argument that porn addiction should be discarded because of its absence in the DSM is unconvincing at best.
     
  12. Psyfer

    Psyfer New Member

    doneatlast,

    Gary Wilson versus Dr. Nicole Prause

    I wish to confirm that I am not remotely interested in the infantile feud between Wilson and Prause. For the record, I am completely impartial as regards this petty acrimonious dispute; I hold no interest in emotional arguments and infantile disputes.

    You and Gary Wilson

    From my perspective, you come across as an ardent apologist for Gary Wilson's controversial assertions. It seems as though you're engaging in confirmation bias with respect to the research you're conducting on this extremely complex topic. Therefore, I feel as though I am wasting my time engaging in dialogue with you because of your considerable emotional attachment to Gary Wilson's arguments. Therefore, any counter-arguments that I offer will most probably be immediately disregarded in spite of evidence that I present to the contrary.

    Gary Wilson's Presentation

    Though the presentation is somewhat interesting, Wilson does nothing other than attempt to "debunk" any scientific findings that contradict his views. This is not a credible way in which to disprove a theory or a hypothesis; note that this is one of the reasons why he is not taken seriously in science or academia. If Wilson genuinely wishes to falsify a theory or hypothesis, he should make an effort to publish his findings in a reputable scholarly journal, so that peer reviewers can analyse if the work is thorough and credible.
     
  13. Universal

    Universal Member

    Why did you ignore this post?
     
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  14. Psyfer

    Psyfer New Member

    Sorry.

    Perhaps you're not seeing the big picture. Firstly, Gary Wilson is creating a popular brand (i.e., Your Brain On Porn™); developing brand awareness is extremely valuable, but not immediately. Secondly, his YouTube channel (https://www.youtube.com/user/BodyWisdomVideos) has accumulated over 2,000,000 views; I suspect that the videos on this channel are monetised (one video has been viewed over 600,000 times). Thirdly, he sells merchandise on his website including the "Your Brain on Porn: Internet Pornography and the Emerging Science of Addiction" book, which is the number one best seller in the "pornography" genre on Amazon. Though he claims that the proceeds of the book sales are donated to charity, I am not at all convinced of such. Unless Your Brain On Porn™ is transparent and provides detailed information related to its annual accounts (i.e., sales revenue, net income and expenditure information), I will continue to remain extremely skeptical as regards Wilson's primary agenda. I speculate that his primary motives ⁠— in no particular order ⁠— are as follows: 1) to gain a cult following via clever indoctrination; 2) to attain global recognition and fame in this niche topic; 3) to achieve financial gain. To me, he is not a credible individual on the science and medicine of sexual disorders. Furthermore, he possesses certain red flags of a pseudo-cult leader: for example, a lot of people on social media and on this forum are extremely emotionally attached to his views, which is very typical of cult-like emotional manipulation.
     
  15. Doper

    Doper Member

    Why would anyone give this hyperventilating SHIT FER BRAINS airtime?....Dude, you are fucking nuts. You contradict yourself every second sentence. Fuck off. We have no need for you here.
     
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  16. Universal

    Universal Member

    Strong conspiracy theories require strong evidence, you have provided zero
     
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  17. Psyfer

    Psyfer New Member

    Wonderful communication skills you have there! ;) Either learn to be courteous or get the fuck off this thread.
     
  18. Psyfer

    Psyfer New Member

    If indeed I am incorrect about Gary Wilson, then I will happily admit it and apologise. However, something about him does not sit right with me, unfortunately. To reiterate, I feel intuitively that his primary concerns are self-promotion and financial gain rather than engaging in proper evidence-based science related to compulsive sexual disorders.

    It is interesting to note that, on his TEDx video on YouTube (entitled: "The great porn experiment"), TEDx asserted the following: "NOTE FROM TED: This talk contains several assertions that are not supported by academically respected studies in medicine and psychology. While some viewers might find advice provided in this talk to be helpful, please do not look to this talk for medical advice." This, along with the aforementioned red flags and also the scientific misconduct issues related to his journal publication (at https://retractionwatch.com/2018/06...-retract-controversial-paper-on-internet-porn), make him seem like a fraud. I will endeavour to find evidence to support my speculations.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  19. GreenSwampMan

    GreenSwampMan Member

    You claim that there is no correlation between porn and erectile dysfunction but then how do you explain the fact that there are numerous stories of guys (even on this site!) suffering from ED who were told by doctors that they are completely healthy physically and who also did not suffer from psychological issues? Also, how do you address the fact that quite a few of those individuals managed to heal from ED after a period of abstinence from porn if it is harmless?
     
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  20. kropo82

    kropo82 New Member

    But is the strict medical definition of addiction the only useful one? My layman's definition of addiction is
    1. Doing something that harms you
    2. Sincerely trying to stop doing it
    3. Finding you cannot stop
    By my definition I am addicted to porn. Luckily after a six year cycle of relapsing and failure I found the NoFap forums and received the support and encouragement (and a fair amount of challenge!) that I needed to make it work. I am thankful for that.

    (BTW, @Psyfer do you know the phrase 'follow the money'? Who do you imagine is making big bucks, Gary Wilson or MindGeek?)
     
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