Crawling Back Up The Rabbit Hole

Discussion in 'Ages 25-29' started by RedPill, Apr 4, 2012.

  1. Canada2012

    Canada2012 Active Member

    Hey Redpill,

    Glad you made a choice and I hope you're comfortable with it.

    I understood a short while back that relationships are all unique affairs (I believe it's on the link posted by Asha.Med on your journal) to complex to be understood by anyone but the involved partners.

    I just want to let you know that, looking back on my own life, I realize I need to be upfront about my intents as soon as I can decipher them properly. I realized my only good card in a relationship is honesty. Not blunt honesty as 'I tell you and don't care about the impacts', rather honesty as 'I don't want to mislead you into believing something by withholding important information only I possess'.

    Some women will agree to uncertain relationships that might not last. Others won't. If I was a woman, I'd like to know about the intent of my man when he figures it out.

    Now that's me and my two cents for you to use as you please.

  2. RedPill

    RedPill Back to Reality...

    There is also the fact that she is helping me to rewire, and as I recover and my brain rebalances, my standards/tastes may change as a result. I might find her more attractive as things progress. Right now, I am just enjoying having someone regular to hang out with and be intimate with. I know it sounds crazy to date someone that you're not that physically attracted to, but it just feels good to have someone around who cares for me and wants to be with me. As you get older, your friends become borderline useless, and you can feel completely ostracised if you're single. Even if she only turns out to be a close friend who I fool around with, maybe that's just what I need right now until I have fully established a new chapter in my life.
  3. TheUnderdog

    TheUnderdog Active Member Staff Member

    That's good man.

    Looks like you're taking the same path I took with Rachel.

    Remember to always be honest with her. This is very important. Tell her how you feel.

    Enjoy the ride.
  4. RedPill

    RedPill Back to Reality...

    I don't think it'll last as long as your relationship though man. You showed me a picture of Rachel once; trust me, she is prettier than my girlfriend.

    I'm trying to have a very honest relationship with her, as reflected in the fact that I've told her about the ED/addiction/depression side to my life. But I can't be so honest that I tell her "I'm not really attracted to you physically", even at the point of breakup. She already has a few insecurities, so it would crush her. It would just be mean, and I'd worry about her mental health afterwards. She also has quite a nice body, so it wouldn't be entirely true.

    I guess I'm just afraid that I won't ever meet another girl who accepts me fully and whom I get along with so effortlessly. I've been with much hotter girls before, but I didn't feel as comfortable with them, and never stayed with them long enough to get to know their true personalities. I have this unqualified theory that the hotter ones will be more hassle. I know there will be some with both the looks and the personality, but they are like unicorns - the rarest of all creatures.

    This girl has many good qualities, not least of which is the fact that she recently confessed that she has no future deadlines set for marriage or kids or anything. She's happy just being in the moment with me. At our age, how rare is that?
  5. High_Achiever

    High_Achiever New Member

    I can relate to this. If you havn't had contact with a women in a long time, and you find one that does give you attention, then all of sudden every girl who's like that is a pretty girl. This is pretty normal, redpill, so I wouldn't worry about that.

    I would say go with it. Judging from what you write, it's not as if you have no appeal for her.
  6. kepa

    kepa New Member

    If you don't find your girl attractive. Maybe she isn't the type to spend all her money on making herself attractive. I found this to be non-bullshit. From a PUA Newsletter. To me it explains why girls from rich parents then to be more attractive. I remember the girl I had a crush on in HS. She was at least a 9 for sure. Her sister told me she spent at least 2 hours in the morning to prepare herself. It is driving her mad. Edit: Forgot to mention. Their family is loaded.

    Pretty sad. Most of the things just boil down to money.

  7. High_Achiever

    High_Achiever New Member

    wow that's a hefty ammount of money.

    Money is definitely a big factor, but there's still some cheap alternatives. I buy my fruits and vegetables from freezers, since they tend to be cheaper. I wonder whether or not the benefits of these products really outweigh the costs. If you eat healthy, would you still need skin products?

    I'm not an expert on this, so I'm just guestimating here.
  8. Hey man, how's it going? Been missing your updates!
  9. RedPill

    RedPill Back to Reality...

    Hey SB, I’m doing ok. I've relapsed once or twice, but on the whole, not too bad. I'm having a particularly clean week right now.

    I’m still with my girlfriend. Without getting into details, she’s been really kind and amazing to me recently, and I find that I look forward to seeing her more and more as the weeks progress. I think I’m becoming more attracted to her, and to the sensation of touch and intimacy overall. Still no proper libido though, and hence no successful sex. I’m worried about rushing it. I’ve woken up with morning wood quite a few times, but don't want to attempt penetration in case it is just morning wood and not genuine sexual desire. I still don't feel like ‘jumping her bones’ right there and then, so just leave it, and the morning wood goes away after a while.

    I’ve just started seeing a female therapist. Thought that might give me another woman’s perspective on a predominantly male condition. Too early to tell if it will be beneficial but I think I’ve found one that’ll be a good fit for me. It’s an extra expense that I can’t really afford right now, but I have to try every available outlet to beat this fucking thing.

    Also started a rather large project due in a month's time, so that should pay the bills for another couple of months. I can't seem to get motivated for it though. Completely apathetic towards the work, and suffer from creative block every time I sit down at a computer. Still craving a totally difficult, more meaningful line of work. Found an advert for a possible alternative position, so I'm going to apply for it by the end of the month. I'd love to have a regular healthy working environment to provide a structure to my day, and to work for a good cause.
  10. Good to hear that you're doing well, Red.
  11. RedPill

    RedPill Back to Reality...

    Just had an incredibly busy and stressful week of work. Felt like dying a couple of times at the start of the week. I've gone proper cold turkey this week. No peeking, no touching, no fantasy, nothing. Insomnia has been a complete biatch, was shaking and spasming in bed. Had very dark thoughts about the future and about life in general. I am totally dead down below right now, even after seeing my girlfriend today (first time I've properly been out the flat since last weekend). Just have to weather this storm. I can't start to test myself and fidget; it always escalates. Just have to be patient and live with feeling stressed out and shit for a while. I have to believe it will get better eventually, over the long-term.

    I'm at a crisis point with my job at the moment. I need to figure out if I'm going to stay in my current career and try to improve and become more professional and efficient at it, or whether it is just better to kill it and properly start something else, which will probably involve doing another degree. The problem is, I think a large part of what makes me apathetic about my current line of work is my addiction. I think I would feel shit about pretty much any job at the moment. I'm just depressed full-stop.

    I'm really terrified of having to go back to uni, as I would probably need to stay with my parents again for most of it, and also get a part-time crappy job dealing with the public, and that would be shit. I also don't know if doing anything else would really make me that much happier anyway. It's the instability of my current predicament that I don't like, and also the fact that there are large gaps in my knowledge. And also that my general perception of things is fucked from years of destroying my brain. I don't feel confident enough in my abilities. If I can change that and improve myself, and get good enough at what I do to land a decent job with a good company, I might be fine. I might be fine just doing what I'm already doing, only doing it better, and for more money.

    I've always had this vision of making a name for myself and trying to save the world or make a massive contribution to it, but I think this is just naivety talking. Very few people do that, and even then, they are all eventually forgotten in time. As long as you can survive financially and be around nice people, you can have a decent life. I need to stop living in a fantasy land and face reality. I need to grow up and become an adult and work out how to financially support myself over the long-term. I need to learn about business skills, networking, PR, savings and investing, property ladders, mortgages, insurance, DIY... you know, all the mundane everyday shit that people bang on about. I still don't want to, but I NEED to now. It's time to stop deluding myself.

    Once I get good at doing what I'm already doing, and properly clean from the addiction, then I can think about diversifying. For now though, I have to try to plug the hole in the Titanic instead of prematurely jumping ship. I can't keep running from my problems.
  12. Sounds very mature of you to tackle your problems head-on. I'm also working on this one step at a time. Car repairs, career choices, insurance policies, taxes, mortgage payments, etc. It's difficult to juggle of this at the same time, unfortunately. I'm happy to read that you're doing well in the no-PMO department.
  13. Queen|s Gambit

    Queen|s Gambit New Member

    I am in a similar boat. I've spent a great deal of time thinking about my values. I've also spent some time analysing my personality.

    For me the values that just shadow all other combined are free time and bucket list. I want to have free time so I can work on my bucket list. This is extremely important to me.

    Right now I am negotiating a 6 hour work day. And once a year I can take my days of vacations in continuous 3 week block (so I can go traveling properly).

    So the job will at least be somewhat aligned with my core values.

    As personality goes I am an ENTP for sure. That is just me. No question about it.

    A job as a Software Engineer. Not quite an ENTPs dream. To boring. To repetitive. Patterns start to emerge and then everything is the same. I know I am capable of so much more. My gut is telling me I should start my own company. Anything. Even if it is total failure. Need to work for myself. Fuck the system. I will make the system.

    I suggest you take some time and really think about your values. Time, Money, Memories, Fitting In the model of adult life, etc? Then think about your personality. Will the career work for your personality? I've googled for "ENTP Careers". It made a lot of sense.

    But in the end there are no wrong choices. There are just choices.
  14. It's all about the bricks

    The addiction is messing with a lot of our life areas and I agree that we need to focus on it more seriously right now.

    I think most of the negative feelings you're going through now, including the thoughts of not being good enough at what you do and needing to improve, are just withdrawal symptoms. I truly think your skills are much better than you think they are. We just need to endure that shit. It's a siren call to the land of relapse. Fuck it. It'll stop eventually.

    I also support your decision to put a hold to the thoughts of changing humanity for the better, and focus on helping yourself first. I do share some of the same ideals but I'm not sure we can make much of a contribution to the world before we address this addiction and some of the deeper issues it hides.

    When that's done (or in parallel) we can focus on making a decent living and spend time with nice people as you say. That's enough for me too. And after than, we can start thinking again about humanity.

    Queen's Gambit has a point though about a bucket list or maybe something even simpler: just a bunch of things to look forward to. Possibly things that take us just a bit outside our comfort zone.

    By the way, I've just started reading "Soft Skills: The software developer's life manual" ( which is about developers but some of it might apply to graphic designers too. I'm still at the very beginning so I don't even know if I agree with what's in there but still, you may find something useful as it covers so many topics (career, self-marketing, learning, productivity, financial, fitness and spirit!) and has really good reviews. Check the TOC here:

    Just hang on man. I'm going through the same shit right now. I'm also having those issues with my gf and dealing with some deeper fucked up stuff but I think it'll all get better the more we stay off porn. Easier said than done, but at least we know we're not alone in this :)
  15. Queen|s Gambit

    Queen|s Gambit New Member

    To be clear what I am saying is: Just make sure your career path is or will align with both your core values and personality.

    You can value your family the most. But having a career that requires a lot of traveling directly conflicts with this core value. On the other hand being a creative guy having a job that doesn't require for creativity. It will be in conflict with your personality. I think best career choice is something that is not in conflict with your core values and personality.

    Took me a while to figure this out. But when I evaluated my career in terms of my core values and personality. It explained a great deal why I feel the way I feel.
  16. RedPill

    RedPill Back to Reality...

    Relapsed again.

    Anxiety has been building up in the lead up to Valentine's Day, and whether I should break up with my girlfriend or not. I'm still feeling like I'm not attracted to her enough. I've figured out that I'll spend about £100 in total on Valentine's Day. For someone who is practically unemployed, that's a lot of money that I can't afford to spend on a doomed relationship. I also feel that having a faux romantic evening out where she is all affectionate would be torture with all of this churning in my head.

    "Why am I even still with her" you ask? The simple answer is that I'm lonely and depressed. Being in my 30's now, I don't have any friends freely available to hang about with, and my flatmate is away all the time. She was the first girl who showed a genuine interest in me and I just went with it. I liked the physical stuff (kissing/cuddling) at first, but I think I just enjoy her company as a friend now.

    We've been going out for over 3 months now, and my dick is still totally unresponsive to her. I don't know whether to stay with her and hope the rewiring kicks in at some point, or just admit that she's not visually my type and let her go. My emotions are still pretty dull (even though I'm a master at hiding this and appear to be having fun when she's around and manage to keep things humorous and entertaining for her). I don't feel any genuine connection though.

    I've read so many "I don't find my girlfriend sexually attractive" posts on forums and online advice columns, and most of the replies are along the lines of "You're so superficial and shallow, you deserve to be alone and she deserves someone who loves her for who she is". But it's more complicated than that. I do care about her feelings. I don't want to break her heart. She is a good person. I'd love to keep her a close friend. But nothing more.

    That's how I feel at the moment. But the problem is, I don't know if I would fancy her more when I'm properly rebooted. Given my recent relapse, that's a long way off at the moment. I think I'll be one of the "Year+ of hard mode" cases to beat this thing. I don't know if I want to be in a passionless relationship for over a year.

    Can I really dump her the day before Valentine's? Fuck, I feel like shit.
  17. TheUnderdog

    TheUnderdog Active Member Staff Member

    I wanted to give you some sexual advice if that's ok with you.

    I have gone through a lot of shit with Rachel.

    In 2 years we've been together I still haven't been able to recover completely. I still relapse, despite knowing that it affects our sex life in a negative way. I have tried a lot of things and we even took very long breaks from sex (months) so that I could abstain from orgasm and "recover". I still relapsed during our breaks, after our anniversaries, after my birthdays, after new year, etc.

    This made me sit down and really think about what's going on. I have been analyzing and reading a lot, trying to figure out this whole mess.

    Our sex life has improved lately and I want to share some of the things that have actually worked.

    First of all, this whole mentality of "I need to abstain for X weeks so that I can regain my libido and have sex with my gf" is complete bullshit.

    I know that this goes against everything that is taught on the forum, but bare with me here. I'm not saying that abstaining doesn't help, it definitely does. What I'm saying is that you shouldn't think along those lines.

    The underlying assumption is that your lack of libido is purely physiological, caused by so many years of watching porn, along with lack of sexual experience.

    I want you to consider the possibility that there is a huge psychological aspect in your lack of horniness and sexual attraction towards your girlfriend.

    Start seeing this as a psychological issue. This will help you solve your problem much more faster than focusing on streaks of abstinence, dopamine centers, desensitization, and all that brain stuff.

    First of all, I suggest you sit down with your girlfriend and have a long conversation about sex. Tell her that you want to work with her to improve your sex life. Explain to her that your libido has been very low lately. I imagine that you two have already talked about it, but do it again.

    Tell her that you want to increase the intimacy between you two. Don't be afraid of getting naked. Tell her that your penis might or might not respond. She will understand and usually not mind. So if all you guys do is hug together while naked, that's ok. If she gets too excited and your penis isn't getting hard, just enjoy the moment. Start to slowly cool things down, don't stop the whole interaction abruptly or she will feel unsatisfied. If you feel like it, you can finger her or give her oral, but it's not necessary. Don't feel obliged to make her orgasm.

    This is neither rushing nor avoiding sex. It is being intimate with your girlfriend, enjoying your time with her.

    Please do not avoid sex. From a psychological perspective you would be encouraging your aversion towards being intimate with your gf. With time avoiding sex becomes a habit, and you start to associate your gf with thoughts like "not hot", "not attractive", "doesn't turn me on", etc.

    Start desiring your girlfriend. This isn't forcing attraction, it's just healthy behavior. Look at her beautiful lips, give her a long kiss. Hug her and grab her butt. Kiss her neck gently. Caress her legs. Do subtle sexual things.

    Stop telling yourself that you see your gf as a friend. Stop telling yourself that you don't find her sexually attractive.

    You can abstain for 100 days that if you keep telling yourself these things, you still won't get turned on by her. You will be psychologically turning yourself off.

    Another thing that needs to be done, which is very tricky, is to stop feeling that you're "missing out" from hotter women. It is very difficult to be monogamous or prevent relapses if you're envious of hotter girlfriends. Stop thinking that you're depriving yourself, or making a sacrifice, or settling for less. As long as you have those thoughts, you will keep seeking pleasure in porn and avoiding your girlfriend.

    Focus on the positive qualities of your girl. Stop comparing her to other girls. Appreciate her for what she is.

    You see how this whole approach is psychological?

    I'm telling you, this is what will help you the most.

    Your libido will come back when you start addressing these things.

    Finally, and this is crucial, you need to sit down and analyze why you are still relapsing despite having a girlfriend. And I'm not talking about things like "lack of willpower" or "I was bored and had urges". I'm talking about the psychological reasons behind your relapses.

    For example, you might feel that sex with your girlfriend will always suck, so you relapse because what's the point anyway? Or maybe you feel that it is impossible to live without porn, that you're depriving yourself of pleasure only so that one day maybe you can get hard during sex.

    Don't analyze why you want to quit porn. You already know that. You have very clear in your mind the negative consequences of watching porn.

    What you need to analyze is why, despite knowing this, you keep relapsing!!!
  18. RedPill

    RedPill Back to Reality...

    Wow UDog, massive reply! Thank you so much for writing all of this down.

    To be honest, this does sound a bit like 'forcing attraction'. It sounds like I just have to repeatedly tell myself something again and again until it clicks. We kiss and grope each other quite a bit and touch each other intimately too. She's started caressing my crotch with her hand the last few times we've been in bed, but nothing is happening. I still don't see her as sexually attractive, despite repeatedly trying to engage in these intimate acts.

    As for what keeps me relapsing, the fact that I don't have a steady job and hence no structure to my day, the fact that I hate the job I have, the fact that I'm constantly worried about running out of money, the fact that I'm not around people enough for most of the week, etc.

    Not good enough for you? Ok, well, I probably don't like myself very much. I have a self-image problem and I've thought too much about life and the universe to realise that it's all pretty pointless and I've become very apathetic and depressed.

    Why do you keep relapsing despite being in a relationship?
  19. TheUnderdog

    TheUnderdog Active Member Staff Member

    I guess it's difficult to explain, it's not just doing these things, but doing them with a positive attitude, with a right mindset. You do them because she's your girlfriend and you want to make things work.

    Your current approach is hoping that after X months of abstinence you will start desiring your girlfriend.

    From personal experience I can tell you it doesn't work that way.

    You haven't been able to quit porn anyway.

    I'm saving you months or years of experimentation.

    If you still feel my advice is completely off, then just break up with her.

    But DO IT.

    Don't think it's relevant and don't feel like writing a 5 thousand word essay.

  20. RedPill

    RedPill Back to Reality...

    I appreciate that man, I really do. Your advice is always welcomed. I just don't know how to will myself into doing something with a positive attitude if it doesn't interest me in the first place. I highly respect you for being able to re-program your brain like that against its own will.

    I think a lot of people make the mistake of committing to something just because it 'shows character/intergrity'. That's all very well for doing a charity marathon or something temporary, but trying to make a passionless relationship work because it's healthier than PMOing is not a good solution in my honest opinion.

    If I remember correctly, you and Rachel started having sex pretty soon after you started dating, so your perspective on this is probably somewhat different to mine. Try to imagine you've never had sex with Rachel before, and being in bed with her and having absolutely no response to her whatsoever. And then having that process repeated again and again and again. Would you still want to make it work?

    I'm really trying to remain positive and upbeat when I'm with her. As I said, I try to keep our interactions light-hearted and funny, and she thinks I'm witty and charming and entertaining. I really do try to take the whole positive psychology approach to being with her, but man, it's really hard to keep kidding myself after a while. I just wish some divine power could imbue me with a balanced person's emotional sensitivity for a day or two, just so I could experience what everybody is on about when they talk about intimacy and passion and love. Without that hindsight, it's really tough to attain it. I can't see the forest for the trees. :(

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