Crawling Back Up The Rabbit Hole

Discussion in 'Ages 25-29' started by RedPill, Apr 4, 2012.

  1. RedPill

    RedPill Back to Reality...

    I hear what you're saying Asha, and it didn't sound offensive, so don't worry about that. None taken. Thanks for taking the time to convey all of your points so thoroughly.

    The crux of the problem is: I don't feel that strongly attracted to her, and I know she is strongly attracted to me. That's it.

    I would normally write a massive multi-paragraphed post with multiple explanations, but it would only dilute this simple truth.

    Leaving out all the other hypothetical complications (future expectations, nosy family, judgmental parents), I feel like I'm just enjoying the attention and human touch, rather than her as a person specifically. You could replace her with any other female and I'd probably be just as content. Is it fair to just use her like this when she is investing in me so kindly?

    The vast majority of people seem to think not:

    The best comment on the entire thread is this one:

    I'll have to come to a decision in the next 24 hours, and if I'm going to end it, I'll have to let her know tomorrow.
  2. kepa

    kepa New Member

    How about a 3rd way. You let her dump you.

    Date her even if deep down you might think you are just using her. Be a jerk. Start dating other girls without her knowing etc. treat her as your friend not your gf. She will dump you. I see it recurring in journals guys getting dumped after gf gets tired of waiting for sex. Her patience is limited.

    Who is to say she doesn't have doubts about the relationship already? I have very limited experience with dating. But one thing I do know is that women are master manipulators. I still cannot forget how this one girl was crying like somebody just killed her child. The next minute she had casual conversation with her friend on the phone as nothing happened. They sure can act.
  3. Let us know how it turns out.
    Just my 2 cents though - rereading your entries sounds like you are asking us for permission. You don't need some random internet guy's approval - go do it if that's what you think will make you happy. ;)
  4. kepa

    kepa New Member

    Don't be a hypocrite rabbit. We are essentially proposing the same thing. I added date other girls just for dramatic effect. I like your wording better. We both are saying stay with girl just for personal gain. That is the definition of a jerk in my book. to make progress in life sometimes you are allowed to be a bit of a jerk.
  5. RedPill

    RedPill Back to Reality...

    1) I don't like being a jerk.

    2) Dating is an expensive business. I'm borderline unemployed and have just enough money to last about 3 more months of rent and bills. If I don't break up with her now, the fancy dinner night out this weekend is going to cost about £70, and her xmas present is worth about £60. That's £130 on her just for xmas. Then there is New Year's Eve straight after it. Then... VALENTINE'S DAY (not to mention all the dates in between now and then). Should I be spending money I don't have on a girl I can live without?

    3) I'm incredibly good at reading people. She's not the manipulating type at all. She's the nurturing type; the caregiver. That's why I'm worried about hurting her feelings so much. She's been nothing but supportive to me.

    Of course I have considered that. If you read a post I wrote just this week, I mentioned about how she went a bit full-on with the dry humping last time we were in bed (last weekend) and then I said that she must be craving sex, even though she says that it's not that big a deal for her as long as we still snuggle and kiss and be intimate a lot. Of course she's going to want sex at some point. I do too. We all do. It will become a problem if my ED continues to be this harsh in a couple of month's time. I don't think I'll be anywhere near healed by then. She probably thinks I'll be fully healed by then. It'll turn into an issue, upset her, put pressure on me, it'll get awkward and messy and end in a breakup. It'll hamper my personal progress and drain my finances, and all for a girl that I'm not fully into in the first place.

    If I'm chickening out and running away too quickly because I can't face challenges, how will time address the issue of not finding her physically attractive? Even if her parents are amazing and my financial situation miraculously improves and we see each other more sparingly, is that going to change her looks?

    If she was a bitch, capable of manipulating/flirting/cheating, and I had plenty of money to throw around on nights out, I would play the field. But she's not, and I don't.

    You're right SB. Nobody knows my particular set of circumstances better than I do. I need to figure this out for myself.
  6. TheUnderdog

    TheUnderdog Active Member Staff Member

    To me one of the coolest things about a relationship is to be able to share your life with another person.

    Do exercise together, travel to different places together, support each other in personal projects or work, teach her how to drive a car, do volunteering work together, etc.

    When you have a life, relationships are much better.

    Now, none of this would matter that much if RedPill were really attracted and turned on by his girlfriend. Or if he were really excited to be with her and finally have a relationship.

    Lack of money doesn't stop poor people who are deeply in love from being together.

    But he isn't in love.

    So basically there is nothing going on here.

    The biggest obstacle is that this girl sounds like a very nice person, so it's very difficult to break it up with someone like that. We don't want them to suffer. We are nice guys.

    It's a shame that things like money, commitment, marriage, get in the way of two people enjoying time together. Wouldn't it be great if Teacher Girl wouldn't care at all about these things? If she only wanted to hang out and be like a friend with benefits?

    All this pressure of getting to know each other families and shit. It's fucking bullshit.
  7. RedPill

    RedPill Back to Reality...

    Nailed it Udog. I've not got anything to share with her or anyone else at the moment. I'm not physically, mentally or emotionally invested in anything right now. I need to become a more complete person before I can give her a real, full and rich relationship.

    Having said that, I'm going to go on the dinner date this weekend, give her her Christmas present, and then disappear off to spend xmas with my parents for a week to mull things over and make a decision. It'll cost me a fair lump of extra cash which I can't really spare right now, but fuck it, I just can't dump her a few days before xmas. It would crush her, and she doesn't deserve that. She sounded really happy and sweet on her texts today. Believe it or not, I'm actually crying as I type this, and I NEVER CRY. EVER. I should be embarrassed about this, but it's actually a relief to know that I'm still even capable of it; it shows that I actually have some proper emotions buried under all that indifference.

    We're going to go out and have a proper final evening together and I'll try to appreciate every fading minute with her. I owe it to her, and maybe to myself too.
  8. Canada2012

    Canada2012 Active Member

    And it shows you can care and feel for others in an invested way.

    Again, in my experience, I had breakups with girls who were awesome girls in every respect but whom I did not felt I wanted to be with. I felt very sad, just as you described. Someone can be a great person but we don't want a romantic investment nonetheless.

    Okay I'm not in your shoes and, as StBold said, you don't need anyone's approval. So this is simply my POV.

    I wouldn't bother with Christmas. I'd focus on getting the most respectful and clear message across.

    I know Christmas is a big deal holiday... peace on earth, little Jesus, love everyone and whatnot... but really what's of utmost importance is who you want to be for her.

    BREAKING UP WITH A GIRL IS NOT AN ACT OF EVIL. You're not mean. You haven't abused her in any way. You gave it a shot. It didn't work out. You aren't a player who lines up women and lie and cheat. You're a good man. And you're a man. Those are not antonyms. You have a right to decide it doesn't fit you, and that you've got stuff going on you need to look at.

    Women and men bond differently. 90% of the women I met attach right away if they feel the guy is right, then bond slowly with time. They have a special invisible glue that activates with touch and hardens over the months. Men (or say 90% of us) are more like snap hooks. We click right away, but can unclick just as fast. We need to figure out the special switch in our head that locks the mechanisms on command to be able to bond in the long term for real.

    I often was stuck thinking in the girl's mode and I always got stuck in my own head when doing so. It just doesn't work. What works is understanding who is the woman we are with and treating her right but from our own perspective.

    Write down the pro's and con's of being with her on a piece of paper and figure out 3 messages that are the most important when you speak with her. Practice and validate by yourself. Then do it!

    If she lured you in for a while, she possesses attributes that attract you. Whether they be her smile, her charm, her easy-going attitude, her warm heart, or her sexy body; it's worth being clear on what she is that makes her beautiful in your eyes. That's the kind of stuff that you can keep in mind when breaking up. Cliche sentences like "it's not you, it's me" might not be useful, but explaining where you stand in your confused life to her in an honest way might be much more welcome. Keep the focus on you for the bad points and the focus on her for the good points. I've found women to have different levels of acceptance to clear-speech based on their level of maturity (and mine). The one you are describing seems like one who is able to interact without too much cognitive distorsion. You might gain a level of clarity by dropping the story that what you're doing is wrong. So she's not the woman of your life, but she's the woman of your moment, and you can leave her feeling okay (not good) by having a clear disclosure that avoids criticism, focuses on your trajectory, and touches (not dwells) on her beauty even tough you break up.

    Strength, Redpill! We men are men because we bear the storms of emotion and remain standing. We acknowledge and live the emotions, but don't get swept away by them. You can do this!
  9. TheUnderdog

    TheUnderdog Active Member Staff Member

    Good shit.
  10. High_Achiever

    High_Achiever New Member

    Ha, this sounded so familiar. I was actually relieved when I got mad during my reboot. My first response was: I can feel again!

    Redpill, if you feel bad because you want to break up with her, then congratulations, you're human. Nobody really enjoys hurting another person and if you don't feel that it's working out, it's the best thing to do. It's also the most mature thing to do.

    I havn't really followed you're tread, so just one piece of advice, don't try to close doors to early. In an earlier post I read something about perfectionism and I can relate to this as well. It's really easy to think that you still need this or that in order to have a relationship or what not, but if basic issues are taking care off, you should be fine. This doesn't mean that you can't improve yourself, but realize that how you see is yourself isn't necessarily how other people see you. You'll be amazed how much more negative we look at ourselves.
  11. RedPill

    RedPill Back to Reality...

    Canada, Udog, H_A - thanks wholeheartedly for your insightful contributions to my current dilemma chaps.

    I'm still mulling things over. I've received more of less identical advice from my Mother, Father, Sister and best friend. They're all saying that I shouldn't rush it, that I shouldn't make the decision based upon superficial things like my current lack of money, and that good people with matching personalities are very hard to find. Essentially, they all seem to be leaning on the side of 'Stay with her". None of them have even met her though.

    Of course I know all of this already, and I knew that this would be the advice they would give me. It's the sort of advice you would give anyone if you want to sound like a reasonable, kind human being. They all want me to be in relationship too for various reasons (so I'll settle down and provide grand-kids, so I can join the couples scene and go on double dates with friends, etc.)

    The thing is, none of them are me. Every year I seem to discover just how crazily different I am from pretty much everyone I know. I have ambitions way above finding a wife, owning a piece of property, and settling down to family life until I die. Without becoming narcissistic, I need to put my ambitions and my purpose first at the moment. If I need to move countries, I have to do it. If I need to go back to uni and hit the books 24/7, then that's what I need to do. I have to develop myself and achieve something with my life. I'll never be happy in a relationship that hindered me in this respect.

    If I was batshit crazy about this girl, then that would be a different story, but she just happens to be an incredibly warm, kind, and considerate girl who I really get on with really well but don't find myself infatuated by. When there is doubt, there is no doubt.

    That being said, I'll continue processing my thoughts for a few days yet.
  12. RedPill

    RedPill Back to Reality...


    Funny, I actually thought last night before going to bed that I hadn't had one for a while, and wondered if I would have one tonight. My balls were rather swollen looking.

    Moving on...
  13. It's all about the bricks

    Red, taking time to think about it is the best option. There really is no rush. Try to figure out what you want. Maybe the attraction is not the issue as there's probably not a single girl in the world that you'd allow yourself to fall in love with at the moment. I've experienced this and I still do sometimes.

    Try to consider other opinions and advice but don't let anyone's expectations dictate what you do or don't do. I'm telling you this from experience. I don't know how much you relate to this but I feel really awful for all the time I wasted trying to meet or even go against people's expectations. Either way you end up living your life based on what others want... or don't want.

    On the other hand, if you somehow manage to identify what you want from life, then it's easy to see if the people around you support or prevent you from living the way you want.

    In my case, I have a lot of work to do in that department, as I slowly realise what a people pleaser I've been for a long time, and how I have destroyed my ability to hear my inner voice. At the moment, I'm in a 6 year relationship and have mixed emotions, I've developed business partnerships I don't like, I go out with people I don't like. I often do and say things because certain people like them and I also do and say things because other people won't like them. And I endure all sorts of stuff just so I don't upset anyone and get rejected. It's such BS. The thought of leaving everything and everyone has crossed my mind several times. My gf, my clients, my friends, my parents. Go to a new country and start fresh. But the problems will follow me there. My lack of knowing what I want and my tendency to just react to other people's expectations is what brought me here in the first place. If I don't know what I want, I'll simply react to others' expectations everywhere I go.

    This is the only reason I was advising you to stay with her. Not because I want you to settle down and follow "the system" so I can feel better if I'm doing the same. No. I just believe your current situation is an opportunity to clarify what you really want, and more importantly to tell people about it without being affected by their expectations. And then again, you never know. You might realise they will support you. And if they don't, you have every right to let them go.

    My only objection was about leaving your gf just because you think she expects you to live a different life than the one you want. Maybe I'm wrong but I think you don't truly know her expectations (no matter how good a judge of character we may be, we're wrong most of the time as we usually don't even know what we want ourselves let alone others!) and you haven't told her exactly what you want.

    Then maybe I could be wrong 100% and all this is me just projecting my own issues in your situation. Maybe. But I don't see anything wrong there either. The issue I'm trying to solve is accepting responsibility for my own life and direction by figuring out what I want and then finding the courage to shape my relationships so they are mutually supportive. Otherwise, I'll waste my life blaming others for living based on their expectations, which in fact would still be my fault because I let those expectations affect me so much in the first place. If you're having the same issue, then maybe some of this is helpful, if not, then awesome, because it proves the issue can be solved!

    I'm also thinking deeply these days and trying to find out what the hell I want. For now, I choose to not break up with my gf. She is not the source of my problems and honestly, when I'm ok we have a good time together. It's when my inner foundations get shocked, that we usually fight, and that happens when I can't handle my distorted interpretations of other people's conflicting expectations of me. That could be solved if I knew what I want and stood for it.

    Finding out what we want is the key I think. Then we can hear everyone's advice and opinions and keep what works for us. We can simply ask people what they want, and if our visions align, we're fine.

    As for looks and appearance, in my opinion, they don't matter that much. They're still about others. Looks don't guarantee your partner will be compatible or your visions will align. In fact, I've seen many marriages ending in divorce because of that. Men that enjoyed showing off a beautiful partner which unfortunately wasn't enough because there was no connection or mutual respect and support. I want to respect my partner for who she is, what she can do, and for her courage to deal with her problems, not just for her looks. And this evolutionary theory is crap. Yes, we want to have good looking children, but if our relationship is simply based on beauty, then we just ruin our kids' lives as there's a good chance they won't grow in a truly loving environment.

    Anyway. This is not about settling. It's not about being unable to do better. There are always better looking women. When do you stop "upgrading"? Where do you draw the line? This is about realising what matters to you, then finding people who you enjoy spending time with and who support you and help you and you do the same for them. And finally, no one says we should all get married, have children, and all that. If people prevent us from realising our ambitions or purpose, we can simply stay single and enjoy our lives that way. If that's what we want, it's totally fine.

    I truly hope you find a way out of this that will be the best for you and for the people around you. Most likely, if you know what you want and you know what your gf wants, the right answer will come naturally.

    Enjoy your holiday!
  14. It's all about the bricks

    Oh... and here's an amazing article on how to find your inner voice and what you want:
  15. It's all about the bricks

    Ok, last one, I promise, but I think this article may also help you with your current dilemma:
  16. Canada2012

    Canada2012 Active Member

    Hey Redpill, I'm glad you follow no one's advice but take the time you need to figure this our as much as can be.

    It's worth it. You're worth the reflexion and she's worth being told the truth.

    Good luck

    p.s: I didn't have a wetdream in ages. Maybe I should stop MO for a while.
  17. TheUnderdog

    TheUnderdog Active Member Staff Member

    Hey man, happy new year!

    How is it going?
  18. RedPill

    RedPill Back to Reality...

    And to you Udog! :)

    I'll keep this brief and spare the details, as I don't want her to find this thread...

    I nearly broke up with her, but we're still together. I had cancelled our date and gone away for the xmas break, and had texted her to inform her of the situation and apologise. She sent me a typically lovely and supportive text back, making me feel even worse. I met up with her after xmas. We talked it out. I said I wasn't sure what I wanted and said I probably shouldn't be in any kind of relationship right now until I get my head straight. We talked it out. She said she had been worrying about me and cried. I couldn't help but console her and patch things up.

    So we're still together, and spent new year's eve together. I just saw her again last night. We click personality-wise. She got me really thoughtful and appropriate christmas presents - more suited to my personality than the presents my own family bought me. She gets me.

    Unfortunately, the 'looks' thing is still an issue, and obviously I didn't mention this part to her. Also, she's not 'girly' enough for me, she's quite tom-boy-esque with her fashion sense and the way she presents herself (minimal makeup, basic hairstyle). It's weird, because I enjoy being with her and kissing her and cuddling and whatnot, but I can't help thinking she's just not my type when I look at her face on many occasions. I think I'm just enjoying the intimacy of bodily contact (oxytocin) after its absence for so long. Maybe you could replace her with any other girl and it would feel just as good. Maybe I feel more relaxed and comfortable around her because I don't see her as being a league above me. In other words, I could just be staying with her for the convenience and the company. Probably not the best foundation to base a relationship on.

    It's all very confusing. I'll give it another month and see how it goes.
  19. TheUnderdog

    TheUnderdog Active Member Staff Member

    Why are you staying with her?

    What's the logic behind it?
  20. RedPill

    RedPill Back to Reality...

    For all the reasons highlighted in bold.

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