Anyone tried 'Sulbutiamine'?

Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by amixon6, May 17, 2012.

  1. JW86

    JW86 New Member

    Took 600mg yesterday, divided into 2 300mg doses. Noticed one random spontaneous erection, and night-time/morning wood was noticeably harder.

    Will be loading up on it for the next 9 days, then taking a break for when my partner returns.
     
  2. captn_king

    captn_king New Member

    Thank you keep updating!
    Do we know if this could be damaging in any way? Or will this sensitize and rebuild our dopamine receptors faster?
     
  3. sak1234

    sak1234 Member

    It should increase the dopamine receptor density a lot faster. The good part is that this increase is sustained after stopping sulbutiamine supplementation. I'm just going to clarify the basic idea a little bit further to clear up some of the narratives, how people should be feeling, etc.

    First off, sulbutiamine's course of action is not entirely understood. As far as dopamine is concerned though, in the prefrontal cortex it is decreased when sulbutiamine is taken. You should ideally begin to feel the lower levels of dopamine as soon as sulbutiamine is absorbed since it crosses the blood-brain barrier with no problem. This is NOT what happens though, the brain tries to compensate by increasing dopamine in response to the sulbutiamine's presence. When people on this board mentioned feeling great, it is because they are feeling the initial dopamine increase in response to the sulbutiamine decreasing it. That isn't the response you should be looking for.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10996447 mentions that acute supplementation (one or two doses) doesn't increase dopamine D1 receptor or dopamine D2 receptor density. Chronic (ongoing) administration of the sulbutiamine is what causes the dopamine D1 receptor receptor density increase. How does this work? Well, once the dopamine precursor storage is burnt out, your brain can't increase the dopamine in the presence of sulbutiamine. When the dopamine levels are down, this is the point that a lot of people are saying that they are crashing so they decide to increase the sulbutiamine because they want those good feelings back. Increasing sulbutiamine dosage will not do that and will in fact lower dopamine even further.

    So what happens next, the dopamine levels are low and as long as they are low, the dopamine D1 receptors gradually start to increase their number. Why is that? Your brain now realizes, okay we can't increase the dopamine levels since the storage is burned out so we need to increase the receptor density so the remaining dopamine have more binding sites available to bind to. So receptor density slowly increases and that increase is here to stay.

    I want everyone to think about this increase in dopamine receptors as the opposite of the decrease in receptors that occurs with all of the porn watching and masturbating that we spent our time doing. We kept overriding our natural urges by increasing dopamine with more and more porn. Those dopamine spikes told the brain, hey lets go ahead and reduce the number of receptors so the dopamine has less to bind to thereby toning down the response to the stimulation. This downregulation doesn't happen in a day or probably even a week. It happens overtime with chronic exposure to PMO. Another thing to keep in mind is that when you use supplementation to increase or decrease anything in your brain, chances are your brain will try to compensate or adjust accordingly since it is the most amazing organ ever.

    I also want to mention that the half life of sulbutiamine is about 5 hours. This means that it takes just under 24 hours for your body to metabolize and get rid of 95% of sulbutiamine in your body. That means your dopamine will essentially no longer be inhibited after 1 day. The only issue is that the dopamine precursor storage that was depleted may need a few days to restore itself so it will probably take another day or two to get the dopamine levels back to baseline. If you need to get those levels back up quicker, you can use L-tyrosine if you'd like, but I would use low dosage and for no more than 3 days or so since you don't want to drive your dopamine levels too high for a long period of time which could decrease dopamine receptors again. I would suggest letting the dopamine storage refill naturally in fact.

    What does this mean to those who are supplementing with sulbutiamine? The crash is actually a good thing. Once you crash, your dopamine levels are down and the real gradual progress starts to be seen. The receptors are doing their thing and healing. I wouldn't mess with the dosage at that point in all honesty. I also wouldn't test this for more than 1 month since there has not been too much research on this. A few more things, I am only looking at this supplement from a dopaminergic point of view. Sulbutiamine has also been shown to decrease kainate binding sites which could affect glutaminergic and GABA activity so please be aware of that.

    Others have posted that ex meth addicts have seen their dopamine receptors upregulate back to normal levels after 14 months of no exposure to meth. You can naturally do this without supplementation and with discipline as numerous others have done, but it's your choice at the end of the day. If you have a girlfriend or are dating, I absolutely would not use this.
     
  4. JerseyJay911

    JerseyJay911 New Member

    How would Sulbutiamine help rebuild androgen receptors (aka. testosterone receptors)?
     
  5. sak1234

    sak1234 Member

    I'm not sure it has any affect on testosterone receptors. Sulbutiamine potentiates cholinergic activity, glutaminergic, and dopaminergic activity in various portions of the brain. These are all neurotransmitter driven pathways.

    Testosterone is a hormone and as far as I know, sulbutiamine plays no role in hormone potentiation. I don't know what would increase androgen receptor density off the top of my head, but whenever I think of testosterone or receptor upregulation, prostate cancer is the first thing that comes into my mind so watch out and try to naturally build up those T levels/T receptor density.
     
  6. JerseyJay911

    JerseyJay911 New Member

    I see. So it helps with erections and general mood.. which is GREAT. Sounds a bit like what maca does?
    Would be interested in know whether it will help my PMO-caused anxiety. It may be because I've been fapping 3x a day for the past 12 years, but my fight or flight system seems to be completely out of whack. When I approach strangers (esp cute girls), my heart starts beating so rapidly it almost feels like a heart attack. After several weeks of abstaining this gets better. But I don't want to have to wait that long for my adrenal system to fix itself. Would be nice if Sulbutiamine speeds up that process too.
     
  7. JW86

    JW86 New Member

    Thanks, sak.

    JerseyJay, no, it's not at all like maca. In the same way that pornography causes more dopamine, leading to downregulation (reduced sensitivity to pleasure), sulbutiamine apparently reduces dopamine, leading to upregulation (increased sensitivity to pleasure).

    The effects are actually a little unpleasant, like inducing a flatline in order to heal more quickly.

    Does not help short-term with erections or general mood.. but if you cycle it on for a few weeks to a month, then stop, the idea is that you get a net gain.
     
  8. sak1234

    sak1234 Member

    Yep, Maca helps to cope with anxiety by moderating your stress hormones so it is nothing like sulbutiamine.

    JW, glad to see you're at the lower dopamine level point already. Any news or updates?
     
  9. JW86

    JW86 New Member

    No discernible changes. I noticed I seem to be levitating towards having some form of caffeine when I have the sulbutiamine - something is wanting to keep the dopamine high!

    Last day of dosing today. Will report back in a couple of days.
     
  10. JerseyJay911

    JerseyJay911 New Member

    Hi guys,

    Starting to take Sulbutiamine today. What dosage would you guys recommend? It's probably best to start off small and work my way up. The pills come in 500mg servings.

    Also, I read somewhere on the net you don't start to feel the effects till 3 days later, and once you do, it'll put you on a tremendous low. Is there any truth to this... or is it just paranoia?
     
  11. sak1234

    sak1234 Member

    JerseyJay,

    I pointed out in my post above that the low feeling is actually what drives the receptor upregulation. The high feelings will not help you in the long run. Once your dopamine levels fall through, you start feeling like shit, and then your dopamine receptors start upregulating. Keep in mind that dopamine D1 receptors are upregulating while dopamine D2 receptors are essentially unchanged. Once you stop using the sulbutiamine, the dopamine levels will come back up to baseline, but the dopamine D1 receptors will stay upregulated.

    Hope that makes sense.
     
  12. JerseyJay911

    JerseyJay911 New Member

    Hi sak

    Yep, I remember now! I didn't piece everything together at first because I simply wasn't receptive to it. It was all just new to me. I have since gone back and read your detailed post, and I now have a newfound appreciation for it. Thank you for covering everything, I will certainly refer back to it in the future. I have also placed a link to your post on my journal in case others want to read about the mechanism, because I made an entry today about taking Subultiamine.

    In regards to my question about dosage, should I continue taking 500mg daily every morning (even during the crash period)?
    How would doing other dopamine inducing activities affect this? For example, I drink some alcohol almost daily (but never in excess and nor is it an addiction).

    Sorry if these questions were already addressed in the previous pages! And thank you again.
     
  13. bosseau

    bosseau Guest

    I'm tempted to try it once I've passed two weeks of rebooting but can only see two obvious suppliers of it in the UK. I'm a bit uncertain about both. So if anybody from the UK has ordered some, please can you send me a message advising where you got it from.
     
  14. sak1234

    sak1234 Member

    As far as dosage goes, I don't really know. I wouldn't go above 600mg per day just to be on the safe side. Just go with 300 mg in the morning and 300 in the evening (not too late though, I don't know how it affects the sleep cycle). If you feel the initial euphoria from the sulbutiamine that you should the first few days, then your dosage is fine. No need to really adjust it. Also, sulbutiamine is fat soluble so take it with meals.

    I would suggest not taking it more than 1 month straight. After the month, stop taking it and let your dopamine levels come back up to baseline. Your dopamine levels back up to baseline + the increased number of dopamine receptors = increased pleasure response in your day to day activities. Again, this will only increase dopamine D1 receptors.
     
  15. Zorman

    Zorman New Member

    This is fascinating stuff! But I'm a little dismayed that no-one has returned to post their results. :-\
     
  16. confused1981

    confused1981 New Member

    This is really interesting - just when I was about to start supplementing with L-Tyrosine.

    I have a girlfriend, I've been dating since July - we only get to see each other for a weekend every two weeks. I'm only 50/50 convinced my problem is caused by P, I just know that it's not right down there - it's very sluggish and almost like it has an impatient personality(!) On odd times things work strangely superhuman, other times, meh. I've had T-levels and my Free Androgen Index checked and I've been assured it's in the norm.

    I've tried acupuncture too, I have my last two sessions this week before I see her again this weekend.

    But you say Sulbutiamine isn't something you should try if you have a girlfriend?
     
  17. sak1234

    sak1234 Member

    The effects of sulbutiamine won't be seen for at least a few weeks, but it's more of a guess. The way it works is it blocks dopamine release so the amount of dopamine your dopamine receptors latch onto decreases considerably (think opposite of porn). Here's how you feel:

    First 3-5 days - Your dopamine stores are being used up in spikes since the sulbutiamine is inhibiting the dopamine release and you actually feel really good. At this point the receptors are latching on to a LOT of dopamine.

    After that - Your dopamine stores are empty and the sulbutiamine is still inhibiting dopamine release so the receptors are not binding to much dopamine and so the receptors upregulate as a result. At this point, you will be feeling like total shit and your receptors start increasing in density until you start feeling better.

    I don't know how long the upregulation process takes or if the correct dopamine receptor is affected (D1 increases in number). I, personally, have not and will not try it especially not that I am healed. I wouldn't suggest it to others either in all honesty. I suggest sticking with the reboot and staying abstinent/active/busy for a few months, rewiring without sex until ready, and then moving on with your life.

    If you want supplements to use, stick with pycnogenol and L-Citrulline/L-Arginine. I suggest using L-Lysine in increments as well. I say this because L-Citrulline (increase arginine levels) and L-Arginine cause cold sores and you need L-Lysine to counteract the high arginine levels.

    I would say avoid this man. Just step away from the porn and masturbation while picking up a hobby or working out.
     
  18. CBGuy1991

    CBGuy1991 New Member

    So you mentioned it increases D1 receptors and not D2, I thought D2 receptors were the ones that deregulated with porn use?

    I'm guessing D1 then is like your daily pleasure receptors?? So thereby increasing those you get more sensitive to daily things and then since your dopamine is hitting those you feel better while your D2s adjust to the same levels? Or am I missing something?

    Also, what's the consensus on it affecting a workout regimine? I am starting one and am due to see my wife/ fiancé in ine week for three weeks (I'm military) but after won't see her for five months, I'm thinking I may possibly take it on and off for 3 months (1 on, 1 off to adjust, and again) to increase my receptors by the time she gets here finally. But point being, I am doing a workout regimine and am wondering if I can be anticipating negative side effects. Currently am taking pre workout (C4 Pink Lemonade flavor) and protein (Syntha-6 Cookies and Cream Flavor) once daily and wondering if it may interfere.

    But generally the cycle (for a month) goes really high (3-5 days) then a crash then a '0permanant' high (more just a 'lower dopamine but "normal" feeling) since your levels of receptors are higher and therefore more sensitive so your brain produces less dopamine as a result?

    I'm curious, very curious to try this.
     
  19. sak1234

    sak1234 Member

    Yeah I hear mixed things about it. I think Gary mentioned in a recent post somewhere in the Porn Induced ED section about dopamine receptors that 80% of your sexual pleasure response comes D2 receptors while 20% of your sexual response come from the D1 receptors that are also responsible for the basic pleasure response.

    That shouldn't affect your workouts. You should still feel that nitric oxide increase when you use preworkout supplements.

    That is correct theoretically. Again, no one on this board has tried doing this long term so I can't say anything definitively.
     
  20. CBGuy1991

    CBGuy1991 New Member

    So then theretically, since you're getting more pleasure from the D1s at lower levels of Dopamine (baseline I mean, I'm guessing since your brain is wonderful at adaptation that since it knows you're able to feel more sensitive to pleasure that it purposefully keeps the dopamine lower?), it gives your D2 receptors the chance to adjust (ie. multiply)?

    If so then using this correctly could in essence fix the receptor side of the problem, at least quicker. Allowing you to go from not being able to enjoy sex or anything to being able to really enjoy it if it's cycled correctly over a three month period?

    That leaves just rewiring of the sensitization part (ie, the neural pathways between porn and dopamine getting released being increased during porn use)
    Which this should help as well as long as your able to have sex on a decent basis. I really might try this starting this new year and keep a serious detailed journal.
     

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