Anyone Here Vegan?

Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by BruceWayne, Jul 30, 2015.

  1. rabbit.

    rabbit. Member

    leannfit is fathomer's alter ego account (for whatever reason).

    What?

    You are wrong about insoluble fiber being useless, where did you get that idea? Read your link lol. It proves exactly what I said, including a nice overview of all the vitamins in whole grains and this little gem:

    This could almost be in a book about logic. All men are mortal, Socrates is a man, thus Socrates is mortal. Insoluble fiber prevents heart disease, wheat contains insoluble fiber, thus wheat prevents heart disease (=is good).

    Maybe quote everything, not just one sentence, and even if theoretically insoluble fiber in whole grains was useless, it seems a bit intellectually dishonest and weird to use a site as evidence for one single claim you make, yet ignore all the other claims on that site that disprove your position (e.g. all the benefits of whole grains that are written endlessly about on that link). I guess they are wrong about all of that, but are an authority on insoluble fiber. I hope I am being gentle enough :p.

    As to either/or, I dont get your reasoning at all. Do you only eat 500 kcal a day? I can eat 5 kg of tomatoes, 1 kg of onions and still eat a slice of whole wheat bread. And obviously, if you make low carb a requirement, you cant eat a lot of whole grains, but I hope I was able to show you that low carb is not a requirement of a healthy diet.

    As to 2b) the point was that there was no evidence in human trials for any negative effect of WGA (and only absurd amounts in mice). In short, WGA is no problem at all, the risk is the same as being afraid to go outside because lightning could kill you (or maybe aliens abducting you is closer probablity-wise). So eat whole grains, they're good for you.
     
  2. rabbit.

    rabbit. Member

    what's with the ad hominems and random appeal to authority? You can do better. Linus didnt get his noble prizes for his work on vitamin c now, did he? But I guess his Noble PEACE prize makes his vitamin c claims authorative. Maybe we should ask Obama as well.

    I'm sure you've read the link on quackwatch about linus pauling and vitamin C (and seem to be in some cognitive dissonance state that makes you reject it completely). One thing I always wonder when I read some research that is not accepted in the main stream at all (some random doctor on youtube is not science): why do all those people in academia not give credit to that particular theory? Money? I dont know, this is more an argument against Pauling -> "Thanks largely to Pauling's prestige, annual vitamin C sales in the United States have been in the hundreds of millions of dollars for many years. Pauling also played a role in the health food industry's successful campaign to weaken FDA consumer protections laws."

    Is it so visionary and revolutionary? well he came up with it 40+ years ago (mostly in his 70s and 80s, so maybe he wasnt right in the head anymore, I think I've seen that mentioned on lyles forum), surely we should have caught up by now with all the technology and tools to confirm it.

    So what's your explanation? The evidence against Pauling's vitamin C is pretty clear to me, but I am curious.
     
  3. Deleted User

    Deleted User Guest

    There's a big leap between being an authority on how much insoluble fibre is in wheat (pure fact) and the effects of insoluble fiber on health (subject to debate). ;) Yes, taking one sentence of a source and disapproving another sentence of the same source is a bit dishonest - but do we really disagree that wheat is higher on insoluble fibre? I don't think so, otherwise I would have looked for another source.

    Insoluble fiber isn't totally useless, but the problem is three fold (at least): it can be irritating for the gut (it is, after all, roughage), it's not much of a prebiotic (which is the main reason why we want soluble fiber - and don't tell me it helps make things move along, because butyrate acid does a much better job at that), and it can bind to minerals hence decreasing their absorption. It does have the "benefit" of being a bulking agent. Then comes the problem of the package, or the food that comes with the fibre.

    Either way, assuming it does benefit the gut, soluble fiber (or resistant starch) does a much better job at it. And again, since we can't have it all, it is either/or... And I'd rather have soluble fibres.

    Yes, I do agree diets can be non-LCHF and healthy at the same time. I just think LCHF has an edge for most people, I've shown articles why, so I won't go over it again. But you can be healthy by other means, so let's admit we agree ;)

    One slice of bread isn't going to give you a lot of insoluble fibre anyway. I mean, if eating 2Kcal, assuming 1.000cal from fats, 400 from protein, you still have 600cal from carbs (150g of carbs - this is, I'd say, moderate carb). You can have some rice/potatoes, plenty of veggies, some fruits, but eventually you'll have to choose and have that sweet potato or those slices of bread, with different fibre profiles.

    2b) Grains still are low in vitamins/minerals (especially if we're talking about modern wheat, which has the added problem of being messed up with its chromosomes and having 4x more gluten than it used to with even less minerals - and though it might be particular to modern wheat, it's still the most consumed grain). In the end the big problem with grains is that they don't bring much, and everything they bring can be found in better quantities elsewhere; while what is found elsewhere is not always found in grains. Okay, one exception being oatstraw tea.

    It's not science, but I know I'm better off with a diet that has less lectins (and carbs, but they often go hand in hand). And there's some science to back it up (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1115436/?tool=pubmed; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC433288/; http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6823/5/10). Now those studies might not be perfect, but they make sense to me on several levels, and that's enough for my degree of understanding.

    Eventually, you'll have to believe in something to feel good. Ideally, a belief can be based on science and good judgement. It doesn't have to be religious, but it has to be enough so you don't have to double-check everything all the time. Otherwise you're just smothering.

    About leannfit, I don't know, it seems he is very attached to Linus Pauling. Like I've hit on his darling, and he defends his beloved with ad hominem. This is not the kind of "belief" I'm talking about/promoting right here. ;)
     
  4. leannfit

    leannfit New Member

    finding out what tubers is is not the point
    the point was what a lousy debator you are to mention something and not define it

    VC has a half life of like 20-30 minutes
    the exercise issue is one I am aware of already, someone else brought that up elsewhere.. which shows how little there is to say that's negative about Vit C

    i know a guy who took 10grams of VC a day, worked out hard, after a year of trying to bulk, no change
    then he stoped taking VC and kept bulking(high calories, heavy weights)
    in 2 months he gained 80lbs of muscle!


    you think that's going to happen cause you take VC?
    then take it hours after you workout, with a short half life..

    seriously, that's an exgerattarrop about your "worry"

    you fear too much vitamin C is "unnatural"?
    says the guy who is wearing mass procuded clothes, in some artifcal structure, who spends his time 99% being" unnatural"

    again, you are a kid trying to tell me(without any science to back up anything you say) that linus pauling is wrong...and Dr levy is wrong... lots of MDs, phds, are wrong, and you are right?
    yeah, oh and you want to not post proof unless it's asked for?
    hah ahaha
    useless arent you?
    and maybe you really are from france and that's why you are so useless
    oh,well
    welcome to my ignore list

    [​IMG]
     
  5. DayThreeLOL

    DayThreeLOL I WILL ENJOY SEX!!!

    You can be a healthy vegan. You can be a healthy omnivore. All else equal, a diet with meat will be healthier/more natural. The quality matters more than what you eat. It will be harder to be a healthy vegan. Yes, it can be done. If you do it, do it right. Go forth my brother and do whatever the hell you want, as long as youre happy AND healthy
     
  6. FREE

    FREE New Member

    Hey BruceWayne,

    I'm not sure if you even check this thread anymore. It seems to have been taken over by others that are trying really hard to prove you're wrong to want to be vegan.

    I'm vegan. Vegetarian for over 13 years, vegan for about 3 years. For strictly ethical reasons but I love the health benefits and environmental impact also.

    I'm fit and lean, not skinny. I don't lift weights to gain muscle mass but even if I did, I wouldn't need protein powders. The myths about protein are so widespread it's no wonder everyone has a panic about it.

    I'm 43 and nobody guesses my age to be over 30. I look at other guys around my age, and they look like used up old men. I'm in perfect health, youthful and happy (apart from what years of fapping to porn has done).

    By the way, on the dating side...I've never dated a woman over 30; age doesn't come up because I just look and act so young. I attribute this in large part to eating the way I have for so long, and I started pretty late in life!

    Virtually everything said on this thread about vegan/vegetarian diets being deficient in important minerals, vitamins etc is dead wrong, but it sounds like you already suspect as much. Actually every point that claims to be grounded in science about the need to supplement a vegan diet, evolutionary basis for eating meat...all of it is just nonsense that posters have learned from living in a meat eating culture.

    You're also probably finding that it's pointless to debate the minutiae of vegan verses the ever convenient "balanced diet" (that includes foods proven to increase risk of heart disease and cancer). Nobody is going to change their mind. That's what I've learned after all these years.

    I've even stopped trying to debate my Dad, who is a DOCTOR. People are very protective of the way they eat, and I'm not going to try to proselitize.

    All I will say (from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE not biased observation) is that you can be healthy and full of vitality, full of energy, with soaring testosterone AND raging boners as a vegan.

    Follow your heart, not the brainwashed know-it-alls that refuse to expand their world view even a little bit. They love to jab their collective fingers in your chest and insist that compassion and ethics have to take a back seat to health. Pfft.

    Honestly, who cares what others think? The response you're getting in this thread should give you an idea of the kind of armchair shaming you're in for. But after a while all the noise starts to recede. In the end, the peace of mind knowing you're doing the right thing is all that's left. And that's inestimable.

    You seem to have all the information you need to make the transition. You've watched the documentaries, you've seen the speeches, you've seen the gut wrenching footage of factory farms. What are you waiting for? If you feel it's time to go vegan, do it. If not, then don't. If vegan is hard, just ease into vegetarian.

    Whatever you do, I admire you for even considering it.

    If you want to PM me, feel free.
     
  7. fathomer

    fathomer New Member

    Are you amazed at the great health you get, yet so many people write you off as "insane"?
    I'm not vegan for any reasons other than health reasons, but I'm not totally vegan, as I eat eggs, no dairy, and plants and I do supplement, not protein, but other nutrients
    I think a lot of the misconcceptions about health of being vegan/vegeterian are a lot like drugs. THe issue isnt reality, its not a conspiracy to get us to eat meat, it's about money.
    and meat tastes god
    but using crack/drugs also makes you feel good, otherwise people wouldnt do it
     
  8. jnv

    jnv Active Member

    Hey there. I haven't read all the previous pages.

    I've been a vegetarian for 2 years and a vegan for 1 year now mostly for ethical reasons. I do body weight and street workout (3-4 times/week and cardio 2 times/week) and everything is fine health-wise.

    I now can do 6*25 full range squats within 5 minutes, 15*6 pull-ups, 20*6 push ups, 15*6 dips and more and I'm still progressing. I'm not a diet-nazi so I don't count macro nutrients nor calories and yet I have no problem at all putting on muscle mass.

    I haven't seen any difference performance-wise when I made the change from consuming meat/dairy product to being a vegetarian/vegan. It's probaly because I already had a balanced diet while still eating meat and this has not changed during the shift.
     
  9. fathomer

    fathomer New Member

    yeah, likely, or stuff you don't notice changes
    Dr levy goes on and on why eating dairy(high in calcium) can wreck havoc on your body
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwi9iZvudXA

    aside from vit B, I see meat contains HCAs HCA's (heterocyclic amines) that likely hurt your chance of being cancer free
    Dieting/musle gain arent about being vegan/vegatarian/meat eater. its about what you eat/what substrates you have available for your body

    if you havent seen changes in performance thats irrelevant, because on any diet, you can not change performance
    if your point is that going from eating meat to eating not meat hasnt changed performance(why are you stilll gaining muscle? lol how "no muscle" did yuo have? LOLOLOLLOL
     
  10. jnv

    jnv Active Member

    Please, stay on topic. Since I started talking about sport, the performances I was referencing to were related to athletic performances only. I don't know why I would talk about the lesser risk of getting cancer while I talk about the link between my diet and sport performances. No need to start talking about all of the benefits you can gain from not eating meat. I already know what meat and dairy products can do, but thanks anyway...I guess??

    All I said was that I have the same athletic performances while not eating meat compared to when I was still a meat eater.

    Wrong. Sooo wrong... I don't even know where to begin.

    What are you talking about?

    If I already managed to gain muscle when I was still eating meat and I still can put the same amount of muscle while not eating it and without much difference (eating roughly the same amount of food), it means both diets can help building muscle in the same way, hence I see no difference in that department. What's so hard to understand about it that you need to resort to such a sarcastic tone?

    If you do not care, do not pretend no one does. You think very highly of yourself righ?

    I answered with info concerning my own experience and only that.

    So, no need to get on your high horse and be aggressive about it. You only make yourself look like a bitter person while doing so.
     
  11. fathomer

    fathomer New Member

    I mentioned the benefits of not eating meat because this thread isnt just read by you and me, other people can learn from it and to get a bettter understanding they would need more than a sound bite.

    BTW< how do you get your vit B?


    yeah I guess I need details, eh? ::)
    if you get the macros you need, PFC, then where you get them from doesnt really matter
    maybe if you understood more, youd know where to begin 8) 8)


    as long as you get get the proper PCF, the source, doesnt mean much
    sarcastic tone because you sound like an Ad Copy, talking about how keep putting on muscle, yet give no specific ANYTHING(how much "muscle", how you measured the "muscle" "gain", etc")
    its like "what is this guy selling!?

    no offense intened man. we are all on the same team
    Thanks for sharing your benifets/no cons of being a non meat eater
     
  12. jnv

    jnv Active Member

    Yeah thanks for confirming what I said, you went off topic then.
    We all are grown up enough to go on youtube or wikipedia to get general info about veganism, but again, thanks.

    Are you kidding me???? I can't believe it.
    You just proved with that sentence that you were one of those who still believe only macros matter when talking about performances and yet you think I didn't understand you?
    That's hillarious man. P/F/C are the most basic pieces of information one can get when checking an introductory blog related to diets and yet, you brag about it. :eek:
    Just a hint so you can google it later.
    -vitamins
    -mineral
    -water
    -calories
    -iron
    And the list can continue...
    ...whatever.


    okay. So the purpose of an ad is (most of the time) lying about purported benefits of a product in order to mislead people.

    By saying I saw NO EVIDENT differences between the two diets regarding putting on muscle and that both of them are effective I sound like an ad copy?? Nice logic man.

    To me, souding like an ad copy would rather be something like that:" Dude, veganism is soooo nice compared to eating meat. You can put on sooo much more muscle, it's unbelievable!!!"

    Okay you want numbers: I've taken measures every month of my (contracted) biceps for the last 5 years.
    (right biceps)
    year 3 (as a meat-eat): from 38,5 to 39,4cm
    year 4 (as a vegetarian):from 39,4 to 40,5cm
    year 5 (as a vegan): from 40,5 to 41,3cm (it's more about 8 than 12 months)

    Precisions:
    -I'm not trying to bulk up.
    -I'm looking for performances first.
    -My work-out routine has been the same over the years for the best part of it.


    Anyway. Let's assume you're vegan (apart from the egg white thing you mentioned of course). You said it was for health reasons. How different is your lifestyle now (apart from diet) compared to what it was when you were still eating meat? I'm just curious.

    No worries, I didn't take it personally, you aren't the first aggressive man I meet on the internet, and probably not the last one. 8)
     
  13. fathomer

    fathomer New Member

    ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
    IRON?>
    be a GROWN UP? ;)
    check out youtube or wikipedia to get general info about iron and heart attacks/increasing insulin sensitivity. and whether men should take in iron

    no, not really
    again, you get the proper nutrition from any diet, your numbers are meaningless?

    what are those? you meaureed your waist? chest? thight? it has to do about training and just cause you got fat, does that really prove anything?
    go google Billy Simmonds is a vegan bodybuilder who won Mr Natural Universe in 2009.
    maybe you need to learn HOW TO BULK?
    I'd give you a link, but you get mad when I help you out. so look up lyle mcdonald and do a proper bulk, 5 yrs bulking? LOL yeah, someone needs to learn




    lifestyle? more time, less expense,
    I dont use a foreman grill anymore, I don't eat HCAs, I don't have to deal with finding meat to buy that isnt full of hormones,. etc
    I dont get the tagalong carbs and fat that go with me.
    Not eating meat is so much easier than eating meat.


    I hope this makes sense, you aren't the first aggressive kid I met on the internet but hopefully you can learn.
     
  14. jnv

    jnv Active Member

    Dude you really have massive reading skills problems. It's as if you completely disregard what people say and then you just start talking about something totally random...
    Here, I make it easier for you to follow.

    What I said:
    What you said in respond to this:
    And WTF was that part about fat? Who talked about fat before you brought it up? I'm fit and the 3cm I got at my biceps is muscles mass, not fat lol. What's wrong with you? The whole point of this part was to show that I gained about 1 cm of muscle as a meat eater, and again 1cm when I stopped eating meant and dairy products/eggs, etc...

    So from what you said you do not eat meat anymore, you got more time, you spend less money, you do not use that grill anymore ( ???). That's what you got by becoming a vegan (and wow...that's very sad).

    Thank you soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much for making things clearer from my point of view.
    Well, I have bad news for you. You are not vegan, not even close to becoming one.
    You made it quite clear that you think veganism was only about dieting.

    Here is the thing:
    By becoming a vegan, not only aren't you going to eat meat, dairy products, eggs, honey and other things containing animal such as cookies, crisps, etc..., but you accept as well not using anything that's derived from animal product. This means you can't use anything made of leather, anything made of fur, anything made of wool. You have to make sure the cosmestics, soap, inks, paints, etc you use do not contain any animal products.

    Veganism is so much more than just deciding not to eat meat/dairy products any more in order to lose fat/weight or for health benefits. You embrace the whole ideology behind veganism, not just part of its diet, take what you like about it and then claim that "you are almost a vegan". At best, you are a vegetarian who simply stopped consuming dairy. So before you say one should get educated about a topic, how about you start doing it yourself first?


    Well ehhh... I'm not going to respond to your taunt. You already have a lot to chew on. ;)

    You can start with this for the basic definition of veganism: https://www.vrg.org/nutshell/vegan.htm
    You are welcome.
     
  15. fathomer

    fathomer New Member

    so what is your bodyfat?
    You realize the best time to bulk is when you are about 10% then bulk(lift and overeat) to about 15% bodyfat
    then diet
    repeat
    this will optimize gains, via lots of reasons(leptin,P-ratio all that) in fact, here is an article that explains it all to you
    LOL
    yeah, I am not a vegan, why would I want to be one?
    i also don't give money to any church and do things cause of logical/rational thinking(hence, little meat/dairy) ie health
    you do things for emotions...hows that working out for you? I LOL

    here is something useful for you to try to learn
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html

    oh, I also go through about 300 sheets of printer paper daily at work!
    OH NOES! THE TREES! ::)

    nothing to "chew" on

    I dont recall every saying I was vegan, I am mostly a vegetarian ::), but not totally, as I do eat meat/dairy sometimes., rarely, but it happens.

    why do I want to be vegan?
    Lion King taught me all about the circle of life.
    My nurse is a vegan, she says all the BS about "cruelty to animals" etc

    you want to save animals, make them useful!
    this explains that easily and gives examples
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSPkVoGx5c4
     
  16. jnv

    jnv Active Member

    This is a quote from one of your posts on this page.
    You made clear you thought you were a vegan for health reasons.
    You made clear you thought you were not entirely a vegan because you still consume eggs.

    Then I forced you to face the evidences and then this is what you say?


    What an unexpected turn of event!!!! What contradictions between what you claim! ;D

    Soon you are going to admit you only tried not eating meat for a 7 day challenge. I wonder what I'm going to find out if I dig a little more ;). But I won't because I can't just waste any more time discussing with someone who can't even be coherent without himself.

    Have fun claiming to be what you obviously are not in real life. ;)

    Have a good day and much success in your quest for health sir.
     
  17. fathomer

    fathomer New Member

    yeah?
    thanks for PROVING What I said
    I am not vegan?
    did I claim to be vegan?
    no
    Turns out, I dont like meat for the valid health reasons I said, HCAs, tagalong fat/carbs, hormones, etc
    turns out I dont know the last time I ate meat, howeever I do sometimes eat Quorn
    glad you wasted YOUR time for no point, when you could watch/read the links i spoonfed you so you could stop being a dimwitted fatty
    holla :eek:
     
  18. ted93704

    ted93704 Keep Your Heads Up!

    it can be more challenging but its definetely doable..I commend you on your ethical decision!

    I hope this video helps you!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9beOZ8euuE
     
  19. leannfit

    leannfit New Member

    fat is active also!
    yeah, it burns less calories, but it does burn calories

    what's better?
    to be 200 and 30% fat
    60lbs fat
    140lbs "muscle"

    or

    100lbs fat and 20% fat?
    20lbs fat
    80 lbs muscle

    Id go with the latter as I'm backed up by a simply survery of what's the healthiest weight
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22530540

    lower BMI,=better health
    so first lose the wieght, then focus on gaining muscle
    you arent going to be smart to try to gain muscle while you carrying a lot of fat anyway(newbie effect*, excluded http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=2540)

    so first cut and while you cut
    do it by eating less, you arent going to create a deficit by exercising like crazy and eating at maintence or excess
    count calories

    this article will help you with that
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/how-to-estimate-maintenance-caloric-intake.html/

    lift weights(heavy, few reps, you want to stimulate the muscle to keep it, you won't gain muscle on a diet*
    eat about 1grams protein per .7-1lbs muscle(lots of "depends" here)
    goal is to have a deficit via NOT CARDIO,(messes with leptin/hormones that can slow weight loss)

    any questions, ask or pm
    good luck
     
  20. leannfit

    leannfit New Member

    what ethics?
    if we didnt eat animals,. they wouldnt be around
    look at the john stossel video and welcome to America
     

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