a short guy's Journal

Discussion in 'Ages 40+' started by a short guy, Feb 28, 2013.

  1. a short guy

    a short guy Well-Known Member

    Found on FindingSanctuary's journal...

    "In an article on the YBOP site I read yesterday that counting days might actually be counter productive - because it has you focus on something you actually want to avoid.

    So let's go beyond that mere counting, but use that magic spell that always inhabits a new beginning to start working the work. As that AA slogan goes: "Keep coming back: It works if you work it, so work it cause you're worth it."


    by cwolfe1458 days

    Make a list: Bottom Lines (those things you will not do anymore) and Slippery Slope (Behaviors that are red flags and lead to you violating your Bottom Lines.) Until it is written down my addict brain will pretend it doesn't really exist. I have to write it down.
    TL/DR: Ambiguity is the enemy. Write down the specific behaviors you are not accepting in your life anymore and list the behaviors that lead you to do what you are trying to stop."

    Thanks FindingSanctuary, it's on my to do list.
  2. Omega Man

    Omega Man Everything counts.

    @Gray Bork: good point. I forgot that I did have a week early on where I felt superb. It didn't persist. Doesn't mean it's gone, but I felt great. I think my first relapse was in part due to that tailing off and my depression sneaking back in.

    The opposite can be true as well. I guess my point was to say that I may have placed too many expectations on the process, and lost a bit of resolve when they didn't happen. The danger (for me at least) is that it set up a prime launching point for the Addict Brain to attack. "See? This isn't working. Might as well PMO and enjoy what you can. "

    @short guy: I like FS's idea. Any book you read on achieving goals says you MUST write them down clearly and specifically. This is no different. As I mentioned elsewhere I need both that and a list of the scientific evidence around the damage it causes for a quick one-page note to save on my phone. I'll make a habit to refer to it when I have any urges. Thanks.
  3. a short guy

    a short guy Well-Known Member

    I just got it!!! LOL!!! I'm ASG... "a short guy"... actually I'm taller than my Dad but he's a Really short guy.
  4. bright_eyes

    bright_eyes Master of My Own Mind?

    Well-done, my friend. And even more well-done is your 21 days and your interesting posts I've been reading. I don't mean to sound like an Internet tough guy, but we are kicking P's ass!!!
  5. Omega Man

    Omega Man Everything counts.

    And he would be ARSG ;)
  6. fcjl8

    fcjl8 The only path for me

    3 weeks short guy!!!!

    That makes you so tall in my mind. Wow, that is so good brother! Another wonderful inspiring man here, a great man doing a great thing for freedom.

    Keep it rolling.
  7. a short guy

    a short guy Well-Known Member

    Thanks fcj18, I just removed the lifts from my shoes, I don't need them anymore! ARTSG :)
  8. a short guy

    a short guy Well-Known Member

    Yesterday I made the decision to make M and MO no option. As I was making my list of "bottom lines" (No P, No PM, No PMO,...) in a flash of clarity I realized that for me M and MO is not an option anymore. My history began at age 14 with daily MO, 40 years of MO. Many of those years pre-P with no P involved, just compulsive daily MO, everyday, rarely a day missed, unable to use the toilet w/o MO, the shower w/o MO, to go to sleep w/o MO (while sharing a room with a brother and then college roommates I was the quietest MO'er), MO became a compulsive ritual that I Had to do. Daily I worked it into my life, even if the only chance for privacy with 7 brothers and sisters was while sleeping, showering or pooping.... because it was apparently necessary for emotional/psychological reasons. It served it's purpose, as dysfunctional as I may have been, but it's not necessary anymore. I no longer need it as I have worked through my life issues enough to let it go. I realize I can live w/o it.

    Still, the decision caught me by surprise and still surprises me. It feels right on, seems rational, logical, but there's part of me that is questioning myself. We'll see. That is my decision, but I guess we will see. I think it's a personal thing and everyone's different, different stories. As an older guy I started long before P and long before the digital age. That's probably a big variable. For the most part P was rare and inconvenient to get most of my life, MO without the P was always available and far more common. I relied on imagination.

    Whether with P or not, MO did not improve my relationships, it did not help me in dating and being out there sexually in the real world with real women. When I did get married it didn't improve it, I pretty much drifted to MO and to PMO when I could instead of the real thing. The real thing takes work. In the end I could not get excited at all for real sex with my wife. So she went elsewhere for that.... but that is history.

    Now I'm in a great marriage of 8 years with a fabulous woman. Sex is good but not very often. It is continuing to be warm and wonderful, but less crazy and exciting. She is happy. I'm no longer depressed (not for a few years) and moods swings are less. This is not my first "reboot", though I had never heard of that term, there were many other attempts over the years with mixed success. During this reboot, and I'm thinking final reboot, I've been noticeably happier, especially over the past week. I know that this forum and the ability to express myself and be my true self with others who can relate has had much to do with feeling more content. I have only had sex once with my wife, a couple weeks ago. My libido is low right now. My appreciation and acceptance of her is high and getting higher every day. The further I get from my reboot start date the better.
  9. Arthur Redux

    Arthur Redux Guest

    Hello A Short Guy,

    Just wanted to say, I agree with your position of "M and MO no option".

    Several posts back there was a little discussion about counting days, and whether it could be counter-productive. For me personally, I believe it helps. In the past when I didn't count days, things were too ambiguous. The counter is a reminder to me that "going back is NOT an option". On the other hand, counters can also be misleading. The guy at 1 day might actually be doing better than the guy at 81 days. It all depends on what is truly happening with the guy and we can't really tell for sure via this weird but wonderful internet medium.

    Bottom line, I think the whole issue of counting days / not counting days, when to reset, when not to reset, is subjective and depends on what is best for each individual man.

    But for myself, counting days helps a lot and I plan to keep doing it. :)

  10. a short guy

    a short guy Well-Known Member

    Whatever helps is a Great thing Arthur!
  11. bork_gray

    bork_gray Beaker doesn't "bork" like the Chef.

    Omega Man -- yes, I put some rather high expectations on my first reboot as well. I succeeded in a rather straightforward and trouble-free way, in eschewing porn (and, more important for me, prostitutes and strip clubs) for 100 days (plus some!) as I had intended. It went well. But I had hoped that I would get more of that "super power" result than I did get. I was very excited to read about a lot of guys who had been socially awkward or backwards in their dealings with women, who found that a reboot gave them the impetus to get out there, and who found that by getting their head out of the computer screen, they started really succeeding at relating to girls. I wanted that sort of thing to happen for me, too. But it didn't really. I ended up with a life which roughly went along at the same pace and same level of excitement that it had done before I gave up porn, and I didn't find that women suddenly interacted more positively with me, or that I developed a huge load of skills I had never realized I had before. It didn't turn me into a super-stud at all. I'm still very glad that I did that first reboot (and I'm now on a second 100 days, to finish near July 4th, it was so much fun the first time! :) ... ) but I'm a little disappointed that I didn't grow six more inches taller, or grow another three inches longer dick, or suddenly start dating super-models without even trying. Oddly, that just didn't come to pass. :(
  12. youngoldie

    youngoldie Onwards comrades - we have to go back!

    Hi short guy,

    I used to MO regularely as well starting from puberty. And I used it together with alcohol, smoking and coffee to medicate my life. Now I see the diffference: Yesterday I had an argument with my wife. Really old matter which comes up regularely.

    Normally I would have taken a bottle of wine to drown my sorrows, and PMOed after that. Yesterday I was angry and troubled, but it was totally clear to me, that I would use none of these. I doesn't help and I don't need it.
  13. youngoldie

    youngoldie Onwards comrades - we have to go back!

    Hi Gray Bork,

    there are changes in my life after letting PMO and other vices (yes ideed, for some guys or their wifes they may remarkable changes, and not everybody would be able to do that). I am just beginning to solve a lot of small problems in my family - or the problems just vanish piece by piece. And it's going on naturally, without big fights and willpower demonstrations.

    Yes sure, there are some hard cookies to chew on, but no hopless cases. It takes time, it takes some repetition of mistakes, some changes of mind, but the progress goes on. This is how far I see the changes.

    About contact with other women: I am married, but I use now more often the chance to contact women in everyday situations (of any age and sort) and to talk with them. And in the most cases it's more interesting than with men. Still I am a little shy but there are a numer of nice experiences.
  14. Omega Man

    Omega Man Everything counts.

    That's interesting to hear. You don't see much of that on the forums. Good to know.

    I know for me, I was drawn to No PMO after reading about the symptoms such as depression and social anxiety, which were the exact things I've been searching for a solution to for a few years now. I'd never really had it before, and it was getting worse. I'd often suspected that P wasn't helping, but never like YBOP laid it out. The PIED was something I also suspected was a result of P overload.

    I'm not looking for superpowers anymore, but I do hope this can help with the bouts of severe depression that I've been having, and help me be even just as confident as I was in the not-so-recent past. And the PIED for sure. That's contributed to me basically avoiding getting involved with women at all in the past 7 years due to the embarrassment I had the last few times I had the opportunity. My other goal is just to see it though, to see what it feels like to experience the world without PMO, and to know I can do it. If superpowers show up, they will be welcomed. But I think the less expectations one has in anything, the happier the outcome.

    And congrats on that 100 days, that's a serious accomplishment!
  15. bork_gray

    bork_gray Beaker doesn't "bork" like the Chef.

    Ah me, 'tis time for a rant. Feel free to ... uh, yah know, IGNORE it ... :eek:

    But it's a good conversation topic. And it's good for me to journal-ize this stuff. Here we go.

    My initial approach here was different. I had been spending a lot of time with a certain porn site (which one? I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you) and a conversation came up there, among the fapping young men who obsess over these sorts of things, about whether or not real world women were "good enough" to be porn stars. And I kind of posted a few vague thoughts, about the idea that the women whom I meet in the real world don't really turn me on, because they're rather large, obese in fact, unpleasant to be around, poorly kept, even unkempt. It was a typical anti-North-American-women rant, made me sound rather like I was chasing after a child-bride by mail-order from Siberia who would prance around my home naked or in French Maid lingerie and fix sandwiches for me. And yet I'm not even an anti-feminist by any stretch of the imagination, politically. So someone said, "Hey, you need Your-Brain-On-Porn-Dot-Com, go there." I don't know why one or another guy happened to say that to me, since the denizens of that porn site all pretty much agreed with me, that North American women are fat slags who aren't worth my time of day, and I really don't know why it appealed to me, to go over there to Your-Brain-On-Porn-Dot-Com. But over-there I went. And I figured, OK, what the hell, why not? Why not just jump in?

    So I joined up, named myself something that was a distantly related munge of my old porn-site nickname, and announced a 100-day reboot. I was a sort of leap-before-you-look phenomenon. First I started my reboot. THEN I started my research into what this whole no-fap world was about. In fact, I had very little trouble with my first reboot, made the 100 days with little stress. I have posted here previously, that I think any success I had was not due to my personally phenomenal superior will-power or any other self-congratulatory stance like that. Rather, I think I succeeded with less trouble than most people here, because I am less addicted than most people here. I am in my mid-forties, and therefore have been given the good luck of developing my sexual proclivities and experiences in a more "normal" way, thanks to the fact that the internet and its streaming porn simply did not EXIST when I happened to be young enough to be inexperienced and without proclivities. I came to porn later, different. But I also came to prostitutes, and I came to them earlier, and I knew darn well that was going to be a more difficult challenge for me.

    So, anyway, I was already in a no-porn (and no-prostitutes; and no-strip-clubs) reboot before I began reading Your-Brain-On-Porn-Dot-Com. I agree with some of it (although I always find evolutionary psychology to be rather speculative; it certainly isn't science, since there can be no postulation and testing of an hypothesis through control-group variation and evidentiary verification), and certainly understand the general premise. I don't think I really need to know the difference between FosB and re-uptake inhibitors, in fact, in order to successfully reboot and rewire my brain, but if it helps other people, then hey, whatever floats yer boat!

    More to the point, I personally had never heard of porn-induced erectile dysfunction, and was amazed and saddened to learn about it, and about its prevalence, once I did join Your-Brain-On-Porn-Dot-Com and start posting here at Brain-Rebalanced. I wasn't experiencing it, and I find it a bit of a mental stretch to even imagine the act of going without boners. My dick did shrivel up for the first few weeks of my first reboot, in a kind of blue-balls way that you get when you dive into a cold swimming pool in floppy shorts, almost tucked up too tight for comfort; otherwise, I experienced almost no change in the plumbing throughout the process.

    But then, on and on I read, and I started hearing about people who were having life-problems that were similar to my own, in fields OTHER than masturbation or sexuality. Their interest in porn had limited their interaction with young women; had made them social outcasts; had given them a faulty perspective on the Mars-and-Venus game; had done all these other things that I, too, was complaining about. Hey, I realized, maybe I DO have some of these porn-induced symptoms. I'm marginally depressed, I said to myself; and I have trouble getting a date; and, I said to myself, I'm socially rather distant, not adept at making friends, not convinced of the likelihood of ever getting a date with a real-world-girl who would please me enough that I wanted to continue to date her. So I recognized my own story in the stories of some of the people who were gaining significant benefit to their outer lives, through this inner anti-porn struggle.

    Unfortunate for me, the victory over porn for those first 100 days didn't really translate into a victory over other portions of my outer life, at least not automatically. So when I say that I was hoping for super-powers, well, I use the term rather loosely, of course. I didn't expect to develop X-Ray vision or the ability to leap tall buildings in a single bound. I did, however, hope that my social life would begin to expand, that my inability to get on the bandwagon at the Seduction-PUA websites would evaporate and that I'd have a more beneficial mind-set, I'd somehow get to the point of being "in the mix" rather than just being on the outside watching OTHER people be in it. Didn't happen. I do feel more optimistic about life, some things are improving, and I'm able to stick to certain tasks in a better way than before when I was still using porn; but my disavowal of porn hasn't just created automatic social success. I do genuinely feel that younger men experience the more automatic transferal into social success than I did, partly perhaps because they're within a social context where social opportunities abound, partly also because their initial addiction was so much deeper than my own that their change is per force going to be greater. They were in a deeper hole, so of course it looks lighter once they climbed out of their hole, than it looks to me when I climb out of my relatively shallow one. But those are just vague general thoughts, to recapitulate and further investigate a fairly basic concept.

    I am really hoping that over the course of, for example, the next six months or so, I can get my head to the point where I really CAN WANT to be with a civilian girl who looks about like a civilian girl looks. I just don't have it, right now. For example, last night I looked at the "before-and-after" thread that's circulating here at Y-B-Rebalanced, a set of pictures of female porn performers without and then with their amazing perfection-izing porn-starlet make-up. Well, it was naughty of me. Looking at threads like that is like looking at porn, for me. Not because I want to go fap, no worries there; that's not something I was addicted to, not much anyway. But because I want to go DATE and TOUCH and GET AHOLD OF those very girls whom I see without make-up. They're HOT. They're BETTER LOOKING than anyone I've ever dated in real life. And so the internet still causes me trouble. Even when it's before-and-after shots that are designed to show to me that even porn starlets are just average chicks until someone does their amazing make-up, all I can see is, that even without their amazing make-up, those human females are certainly above the average of anything I've personally ever wrapped my hands around or stuck my dick into. I know, it's a bad frame of mind. I know, it's not necessarily true. Logically speaking, I see all the weaknesses.

    But still my EMOTIONS don't follow suit to the direction where I want them to be, which is this: when I meet a girl on the street, I want to be able to think of her as pretty, attractive, alluring, sexy ENOUGH that I actually WANT to fuck her, and sexy enough that I can want to fuck her for several bouts to the extent that we become an item, learn to support one another mutually, develop a pair-bond, and therefore my commitment to our relationship further makes me want to continue to fuck that one girl even though she no longer represents variable novelty. I WANT to be able to WANT a real girl. I know that I do want "real" people, emotionally; but physically, so very very very few North American women meet my criteria of level of minimum physical attractiveness, that I just don't see it coming to pass, that I'll stick my dick inside any real girl ever again. The prostitutes and strippers are the hotties; the girls at the bars are dumpy, fat, angry at men, they have mustaches, they think I should make more money than I do, they're interested in locking up a man on the basis of the truly adjusted (and therefore truly non-biological) typical North American rules about how one is supposed to have a house in the suburbs and the male is supposed to be the social and sexual aggressor and the female is supposed to hate sexuality and therefore is supposed to relinquish it only seldom and only reluctantly. I don't want that. I want a hot chick. I want a skinny fit girl who likes to fuck. And I want her to want something other than my high income or my home in the suburbs. That ain't me. But evidently the girls around me aren't living up to my standards. :(

    So, see where I'm at? And, see why I want to change it? I mean, logically, I'm sure there are attractive girls out there. I'm sure, it's so reasonable to say, that I can be happy with someone who is willing to work with me to get over the cultural imperatives of suburban family-raising. There are tons of alternative ways to live a lifestyle, build a relationship, and tons of women willing to experiment or try out or have a different view of what it takes to succeed. I can't find them. And when I do find them, they're ugly to me, largely because the women who are willing to be alternative to the norm, are women who have been forced into alternative theories of success precisely because the normative theory isn't working for them. They're desperate, so they're willing to change, and therefore to cooperate. The hot girls don't HAVE to cooperate. So if there's one who knows she can run, jog, get physically fit, have rising buttocks and perky breasts and symmetrical youthful face and lustrous hair? Then why SHOULD she do without the house in the suburbs, the man with the wallet, the boring but socially certified existence? I can't offer it; don't want to offer it; but that means the girls with nice asses aren't ever meeting me, because they're so busy meeting the drab career-minded men who will bore them later in their lives and contribute to the rising North American divorce rate. Sure, now that the women have aged out of the young-girl phase, and divorced their boring husbands, sure, now they're available, they're 45 and 2 years younger than me and they have three children, saggy breasts, drooping backsides, have stopped jogging, and really want to cooperate with men. No thanks, I don't want to raise another man's kids, I want to be my own first fiddle, not his second. But it seems I need to learn to be drab boring and wallet-packing to get the chance with anyone who looks good enough.

    I don't REALLY think porn did this to me. I know that porn CAN push you in this direction, but I think I was there before porn. I've always been physically fit, and I've always been appalled at the morbid obesity of the humans around me. I don't really judge on the basis of it -- I can still take orders from a fat boss, male or female, to the same extent as from a skinny one, I think they're about equally likely to be morons as they are in any Dilbert cartoon. I am friends with people of all sizes. But I don't want to FUCK the fat girls. I don't give a damn how friendly they are, or how nice to small animals, or whether they get along with me, if they have an ass the size of a Buick that prevents me from getting mister happy into her up to the hilt. It's HER mistake, to eat more King Dongs, not MY mistake; I'm doing without King Dongs all day today, and tomorrow, and did so yesterday too. Why can't I get a bit of a REWARD for that effort? Why am I stuck with the undesirables?

    That's how I FEEL about it. I know, logic differs from that feeling. Can you give me a sense of how to change my feeling to be more in concert with logic and reason? How to move forward from this frustration? It's been there for about twenty-five years. Porn was a symptom of that frustration; but, sad for me, now that I know porn is roughly out of the mix for a while, nevertheless I still have the frustration. Can SOMEONE please snap his fingers and make the single women around me lose forty pounds each? :p
  16. a short guy

    a short guy Well-Known Member

    Thanks for sharing Gray Bork,

    It sounds like as you said, P did not cause you to feel how you do - sexually interested and aroused only by a small percentage of women who are thin, fit, perky, symmetrical, ... You feel how you feel, even without porn. I don't know how to address your feelings of frustration, the world is what it is, and people are who they are. Unfortunately now well over half of adults in North America are overweight. It is noticeable. We are fat. Men, women, children (and our pets).

    I do know who you can blame, President Tricky Dick:

    I suppose most women in North America don't look like un make-up'd P-stars. Cheap and readily available imitation food crap loaded with sugar is making them (and men) fat. How about looking for women who don't eat sugar, junk food, processed food, but instead care about their health, use food as medicine and prepare their own meals from local, organic, fresh whole foods.

    I am glad you are not apparently seriously addicted to porn! That's one battle that doesn't have to be fought! :)

    Another thought, I have an image of the perfect woman that really turns me on and whom I'd love to F***, I've had that image all my life, my wife cannot live up to that image, maybe another woman could, but things will change and that perfect or near perfect woman will change, get fat, get saggy breasts, get wrinkles and grow old. I still have fantasies of having that perfect woman. That is what draws me to P. That's what could draw me to prostitutes I suppose. I am choosing my wife and enjoying being sexual with her even though she is not up to my perfect woman image. I guess for me it's just a choice. I accept her as she is, but have had to practice doing that. I'm most interested in long term compatibility and unconditional love. I've turned down blown opportunities one opportunity to F*** women the woman of my dreams who met my perfect image standards because I wanted long term and they she didn't. I don't regret it. I really did then, but I really don't now.
  17. bright_eyes

    bright_eyes Master of My Own Mind?

    G.B. I hear you on the women thing, just like I heard you on the job thing. I will limit myself to pointing out that "place matters". Sometimes you're in the wrong place, and you have to move on to another place in order to be in the right place for you. I am currently in a right place, but I've spent plenty of time in some wrong places. The difference is remarkable, as if I am two completely different men. I'm not, of course, but that's what it feels like.

    When you're in a wrong place, it's like being in a bad parallel universe. Somehow, you have to get to a right place so that you are in a universe that makes sense to you.
  18. Arthur Redux

    Arthur Redux Guest

    I confess I haven't had time to read Gray Bork's post in it's entirety ... but I can echo Bright Eyes (or was it Gray Bork also?) on the job thing. I'm lucky enough to finally be in a work situation that very closely matches "who I am". It's really, really, wonderful.

    I mainly wanted to stop in and say hi, my apologies if my post is not apropos having not read all posts in their entirety :)

  19. Omega Man

    Omega Man Everything counts.

    @GB: I'd have to say I share many if not most of the thoughts you expressed in that rant. And @b_e may be indeed be right about location (I've thought often that I don't belong where I currently am, and it can't be the same everywhere).

    I think you summed it up with "The hot girls don't HAVE to cooperate." That's pretty much it. I don't really blame them either. If you were them, and guys were throwing money and opportunity at you, you could even have your choice of guys. I've been with girls I find attractive. But in general it seems the less attractive ones are more likely to approach, and are more outgoing (they have to be, as you put it). My last PIED experience was with a girl I really had the hots for, and an amazing body. But I wasn't able to do anything. That really deflated my self-confidence. I stopped pursuing. I was relegated to being approached by the gutsy 5's & 6's. Sure, we can't all have the hot ones. And to be fair, I'm not the most charming or exciting guy out there. But I've had my moments in the past, and it's tough to downgrade. I mean, who buys a new smaller TV? I basically got to the point where I'd rather jerk off than have to settle for women I had zero attraction for, just to get laid. I used to tell myself that all I really cared about was the orgasm anyways, right? But YBOP made me wonder if I was screwing up my brain, and by extension other areas of my life.

    But I'm not surprised that girls who have their pick pass me by, then or now. You have to offer something of value if she's getting offers thrown at her left and right. I've got my flaws, both physical and personality-wise. I don't expect perfection on her end. Still, I can't say that I don't share the thoughts you posted.

    I've mentioned elsewhere that I'd be glad just to be where I was confidence-wise and socially back in my 20's-30's. And be rid of the depression & social anxiety. I still wonder if it's just from age and awareness, and perhaps PMO has nothing to do with it at all. It could "just be me" as I used to tell myself. The experience of others points elsewhere, but who knows until I try? Your 100 days throws interesting light on it all though. I don't expect No PMO to clear up my cynicism :)

    @ASG brings up an interesting point, that of a fictional ideal. LTE talks a lot about staying out of fantasy. I know I too have a general idea of what a "perfect" (or at least a super-hot) woman looks like. The bummer is that they are out there (at least visually on the internet), and there are P photos and videos that fit the bill for me to a T. I wonder if the guys who I say have "settled" don't have this fantasy ideal in their minds? I know very few wives or even women I know that I'd consider "hot". Many of them seem to have a generally good relationship, and that I am more jealous of than anything on the physical side.

    I think this gets back to the novelty aspect, where in real life, there just aren't that many hot women! At least not where Gray Bork and I live! And I live in a college town! But through the media (and the internet), we get this concentration of hot women (photos/videos of them at least), find ones that match our fantasy, and then the local slobs pale in comparison. Another thing to consider as b_e mentioned is that hot women probably move to places to get noticed or get a rich guy - NYC, SF, LA, not the cold dreary hick towns like I live in. That's something to consider. But I'm here, and the internet is overloading me with the contrast of the concentrated hot women compared to my local scene.

    I'm not sure I'm making 100% sense here, but hopefully you guys get the gist.
  20. bork_gray

    bork_gray Beaker doesn't "bork" like the Chef.

    Interesting question, and yes you are making sense.

    If you have an internal "ideal" of a woman, then can you have an external "real" woman as well? And for those guys who have someone that they're longer-term bonding with, is it the case that (a) the guy initially felt the woman did indeed fit (or exceed) his internal ideal, or (b) the guy never had an internal ideal in the first place?

    I don't mean "ideal" in terms of physical appearance only, nor do I mean that it has to be just one ideal. I know that presently inside my mind I have a rather specific sense of what is, or is not, "hot enough," and I simply cannot help but reject the mere THOUGHT of pursuing a woman who is NOT of that standard. But there can be hundreds of varieties of "hot enough," the blonde, brunette, tall, short, voluptuous, willowy, etc.. In fact, I tend not to find as physically appealing those women whom, so mainstream media suggests, I ought to find appealing, such as the former Pam Anderson types, large breasts and small body and very curvaceous to the point that she seems unable to jog down the beach without contorting her body and falling out of her swimsuit, with fake-looking bleached hair etc.. That's not my type, generally, so when I say "ideal" I really don't mean the most simple-mindedly shallow ideal.

    Furthermore, above and beyond the selection of ideal or good-enough relative to some standard, there's also the internal mental mechanism of variety-seeking. We know (or ought to!) about that here at no-fap central, since one of the greatest dangers with porn is that it continually trains and extends our need for greater variety than would be regularly available in a more natural setting. What about those guys, up in (a) versus (b) above, and the question of whether their girl fits their ideal? What about later, after the girl did fit the ideal? How does she then also fulfill the variety?

    For me, all of this just "happens" inside my head. I don't actively go out and SEEK a woman who does or does not have a certain set of characteristics, although I can observe myself after the fact and identify several things that I tend to fall for, that I tend to look for, or even that I tend to inevitably pursue much to my detriment. But I have no occasion when I can tweak my preferences and decide what it is that I am going to go after. It's hard-wired within me.

    I think this is, in fact, a major bone of contention between men and women, in that Mars-and-Venus game, in which the girls tell men what men are supposed to want. The big point of miscommunication is simply that women don't get the message, that men have very little control over these desires. The women say things like, "Don't you WANT to want someone who will be good to you?" and they just can't understand the man's answer, which tends to be (especially in those late-night bull sessions on college campuses) something like "But her tits aren't big enough." The man doesn't mean, "I hereby choose to demand larger tits despite and in all ignorance of the woman's behavior toward me." No, he means, "I wish I could do without bigger tits, because there's a really nice girl who treats me well, but dammit biology prevents me from wanting her because of her inadequate tits." (I'm using tits as a metaphor, here, of course; some men don't like large tits, duh.) The younger women don't tend to get the message. They don't hear, "I have no choice but to have the desires that I have," but rather they hear, "I (the male) am choosing certain rather idiotic desires."

    I wonder just how much of your desire you CAN choose. I mean, I could, technically speaking, actually gouge my eyes out. Really. I sometimes wonder if life isn't happier for blind people. I don't intend to do that, but it's worth considering, just to get the idea that visual perception is part of the problem. But it's also part of the solution. Half of the great joy I get at looking at women, is the idea that visually I receive stimuli that are valid, enjoyable, verifiable, all that stuff; but also, they're stimuli that MATCH or exceed that internal ideal where this whole conversation started.

    We're stuck with it. We are looking to look, and then disappointed when the look is inadequate. I really am angry at women for failing to live up to their requirements, in my head. I don't want to be angry, but, when a perfectly friendly person with a background similar to mine turns out to be seven times more heavy than her most flattering picture on Facebook makes her seem, and I just know I'm having poison-avoidance syndrome and sensing the impending revulsion, I can't be blaming my own internal mechanisms for her failings. I get to accept myself unconditionally. I wish she had made it possible for me to do the same for her. She didn't. Self-indulgently, she failed us both, by gaining weight.

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