A scientific question i need to ask

Discussion in 'Pornography Addiction' started by Chillout, Mar 16, 2016.

  1. Chillout

    Chillout New Member

    Hello all ,

    I have a question that i need its answer , when I Masturbate without going into full orgasm , what happens to the Sperms the moments/hours after i stops Masturbating without orgasm ? Do they return to their original position or something else happens , and what is its after effects compared to full orgasm ?

  2. Loleekins

    Loleekins Nemo repente fuit turpissimus

    The body reabsorbs dead and excess sperm. Sperm is broken down into basic components (proteins etc) so they can be carried away by the blood stream and essentially recycled by the body.
  3. Chillout

    Chillout New Member

    Thanks for Reply

    So is it a bad thing on health or brain or it is a normal thing ?
  4. Loleekins

    Loleekins Nemo repente fuit turpissimus

    Either one (retention or ejaculation) is a normal and healthy thing. Your body is designed to do both, and do both efficiently. I'm stating this from a purely biological perspective, I'm a nurse.

    Mentally/emotionally, I cannot speak on as this is individual. :)
  5. Deleted User

    Deleted User Guest

    100 days, no orgasm and I have never felt better. Abstinence does not cause flatline or cause me to feel like shit.

    Reprofuctively, ejaculating a few times in a lifetime would be enough by the way ;)
  6. Loleekins

    Loleekins Nemo repente fuit turpissimus

    Reproduction is not ejaculation into a toilet, tissue, or sock.

    Studies show that ED can be harmful and potentially develop into further and more prolonged ED due to nerves and tissues suffering via disuse. Disuse means erection, not ejaculation. Erection is experienced by most men off and on throughout various times of the day and night (with medical exception) without erection or ejaculation being forced via masturbation.

    I don't currently have the time to write up something myself (apologies), but have found a easy to understand publication that reflects the variables that are relevant.


    There could be a number of issues with your sex drive, SB.

    But the first is: quit paying attention to the “use it or lose it” crowd. That’s not how one’s libido works. You don’t have to constantly “prime the pump” as it were (hello new euphemism!) in order to keep the waters flowing… er…

    Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, if you don’t take it out and use it, it’s going to rust…

    OK I think that metaphor may have gotten away from me. Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey. Anyway.

    It gets easier to ignore your sex drive if you make the conscious decision to remain celibate, avoid masturbation and other forms of sexual stimulation, but this is more akin to trying to the effort to follow a gluten-free diet than urge to screw withering away and dying.

    Now the big question is: are you concerned because you feel that your sex-drive SHOULD be higher but isn’t, or are you actually upset by it’s decline?

    If it’s the former…

    There are people who just have lower sex-drives. It can be somewhat unnerving for some men; after all, we’re told over and over again that to be a man is to be a rampaging horny beast, ready to fuck anything, so if you don’t then clearly you’re less of a man, right? Wrong. A man is far more than just his libido; accepting that this is just your natural level and everything is just fine will make you feel better. It’s just a part of who you are, and it’s completely normal.

    I’m sure many people in the comments will also mention the asexual community – people whose sex drives are low to the point of near non-existence. Whether you’re at that extreme or not, it may provide you with some comfort to know you’re not alone.

    If it’s the latter, then you should look into potential issues that may be affecting you.

    (And I feel obligated once again to point out that Dr. NerdLove is not a doctor of any kind.)

    Your low libido could have a number of causes. To start with, you may want to investigate your diet and levels of exercise. A sedentary life tends to correspond to lowered testosterone and sex drive. Similarly if you haven’t been sleeping well, you may find that you feel less vital over time – including a lower libido. Stress levels can also kill your sex-life dead, as can depression. If you’ve been dealing with depression issues – you mention that you’ve got lowered self-confidence due to a lengthy dry spell – you could well be causing your lowered levels of desire. Anti-depressants like Zoloft can also have libido-killing side-effects – not to mention making it difficult to orgasm at all even when you are in the mood to get your swerve on.

    You may also have issues with your hormone levels that could be playing merry hell with your sex-drive.

    The best thing you can do is start with the least invasive solutions first: cut down on drinking alcohol and any other depressants you may be ingesting, especially weed. Look to your diet and lifestyle first. If you’re drinking nothing but coffee or soda and eating nothing but processed crap, then it’s time to start giving those up as well: more water and natural, whole foods with as little chemical modification should be the order of the day. While we’re at it, you should up your levels of cardiovascular exercise and physical activity. Being physically active and getting the heart pumping and your blood moving for at least 30 minutes per day can also help get other juices flowing if you know what I mean and I think you do.

    Being more physically active will also help get your endorphins flowing, which can help with feeling depressed or just that vague “malaise” that can come with being sluggish and eating crap. Eating better and being more active will also make you feel better about yourself – which can help give you that confidence boost you want.

    Now if making these changes doesn’t help shock some life back into your libido, you should definitely talk to your doctor. They can run tests to make sure that you don’t have some undiagnosed issue that’s killing your sex-drive and prescribe treatment if it’s actually necessary.

    NOTE: Do not try to self-diagnose by using Doctor Google. “Lowered Testosterone” is a popular buzzword condition being marketed at men right now with a metric fuck-ton of cures (including bullshit supplements and “therapies”) looking for a disease to treat. Also: you will convince yourself you have cancer. It’s always cancer when you use Doctor Google.

    And finally:

    While I’m a fan of casual sex in general, I don’t recommend going into it looking for a self-esteem boost or as a way of juicing your sex-drive. Trying to use sex as a means of boosting your self-esteem is a form of seeking external validation – you’re defining your self worth by who you can stick your dick in. Not only is this a profoundly unhealthy to act towards yourself – at best, you’re trying to numb yourself, rather than actually treating the underlying issues that are affecting your self-worth, but it’s a shitty way to treat the people you’re sleeping with. You’re treating them like an object whose purpose is to prop up your fragile ego, rather than as a person.

    I think you’re having more issues regarding your self-worth being based on how hard your dick gets and how many people you’ve slept with, which is a bullshit measurement for masculinity or an individual’s value. A dry spell of three years isn’t necessarily pleasant, but it’s hardly unusual in the scheme of things, nor is there anything unusual or shameful in having only had a single sex partner.

    I would recommend that you work on your self-esteem first – especially if it’s causing your sex-drive issues – before trying to dive head first into some one-night .
  7. Gary Wilson

    Gary Wilson Active Member

    Let's expand this statement to make it accurate:
    1) These are all men who were chronic Internet porn users.
    2) Most were young men who grew up using internet porn.
    3) They abstained from using porn, not just masturbation.
    4) They are the rare few who chose to comment on YBR (far less than 1% of visitors). I base this on the fact that YBOP alone gets 15,000-20,000 unique visitors a day, and YBR total membership after 4 years of existence is 16,000.
    5) Many have seen their libido return, and continue to do so. Once again, those that don't have any problems, do not post on YBR.
    6) It's very rare to see an extended flat-line in an older man (who did not spend his adolescence using internet porn)

    I support you in telling your story, as YBOP agrees with you that rebooters should eventually try masturbation if they don't have a sexual partner. However, please keep your claims in context. You are basing everything you say on men who share all of the following characteristics:
    1) posted on YBR,
    2) have experienced a very long flatilne
    3) not recovered from PIED

    This is an infinitesimally small percentage of the total number of men who have attempted rebooting. And it's a small percentage of all those men who have posted on the major forums (nofap, r/pornfree, nofap.org, YBR, RBN, feed the right wolf, bodybuilding.com, etc.)

    And don't forget we have an faq plastered all over YBOP just for this group of men (which says you should try masturbating and fantasizing, etc.) - http://yourbrainonporn.com/started-internet-porn-and-my-reboot-erectile-dysfunction-taking-too-long

    Finally, there's one last thing that needs to be mentioned - you did have a long break from PMO. This may have allowed you to recover.
  8. Loleekins

    Loleekins Nemo repente fuit turpissimus

    As I've said, it's individual. As you can see by Newnes posting, the converse of what you state is also true. :)

    I, you, and anyone else have no way of knowing completely what factors are at play in a person's life. Their mental state, emotional state, physical state, and the unique level of their libido all come into play. Many people are very oblivious of their own factors. We tend to overlook the daily and overthink the obscure. When someone posts "no libido!" many things need to be considered in attempting to assist the poster. Diet? Exercise? Medication? Depression? Illness? It's a big list of possibles that may have impact on this individual.

    I would respectfully suggest that believing in absolutes is a route to not fully embracing the complexities of this issue. :)
  9. Gary Wilson

    Gary Wilson Active Member

    I was careful to NOT use the term "porn addicts". I said chronic internet porn users. As stated on YBOP, many guys who are not porn addicts develop porn-induced sexual problems. Those with porn-induced sexual problems have conditioned their sexual arousal templates to porn use. Compulsive use is not necessary. When they quit they may experience a flatline, because the stimulus has been removed.

    But we are talking about porn users. That's my point. Those who consistently use porn may enter a flatline. This is acknowledged. But not all do experience a flatline, and many see an increase in libido. I see guys posting about the increase in libido all the time on r/nofap - which of course is the most active forum.

    First, they were all internet porn users, and probably spent their adolescence using porn. That is the criteria I have seen over an over for developing a flat-line.

    Second, we acknowledge that porn users may enter a flatline. Anyone can gather many stories of porn users abstaining and entering a flat line. So what? The question - what happens several months down the road? We have thousands of accounts of guys going through flatlines and healing.

    I'm not accepting the claim that abstaining from ejaculation "normally" leads to loss of libido and the inability unable acheive an erection by abstaining from ejaculation for a month or so. Never heard of such a thing. I've done it and it did not affect my libido. I've talked to many other non porn using guys who have abstained. They did not experience a flatline.

    There are entire tribes that do not masturbate and the men's libido are just fine.

    For decades now, therapists and sex addiction groups have had male sex addicts abstain from all sex and masturbation for at least 90 days. Where's all the anecdotes of those men being unable to acheive or becomes sexually excited?

    Here's terry crews with his 90 day sex/masturbation fast - https://youtu.be/tRCzTJ4gCKo
    He was so horny he had sex on day 75 (he's 48 and did not grow up with porn). The next year he did a full 90 day. He had no problems.

    Then we have millions of recruits going through boot camp. Most say they don't masturbate during basic training. Yet right outside the base we have massive prostitution. Where are all the stories, from earlier generations, of new recruits losing their libido and no longer being able to achieve an erection?

    I will never believe that it is "normal" for non porn using men to enter a severe flatline (no libido, unable to have an erection) when they temporarily abstain from ejaculation. There's no historical anecdotal thread of stories to support developing severe flatline when temporarily abstaining from ejaculation. And we are not short of religions and cultures where men abstained for various lengths of time. In addition, your conjecture concerning the physiology is not supported by the literature. (That said, YBOP does not support abstinence as a lifestyle or goal, and suggests masturbation long rebooters)
  10. Wabi-sabi

    Wabi-sabi Imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete

    I disagree with your first point. I think people project a fantasy-based view of our early ancestors running around and copulating like crazy. For a start, you lose your libido when you are hungry, which our distant relations must have been much of the time.

    Another point, from a genetic point of view, is that it isn't about impregnating lots of women, it's about ensuring that your children are cared for enough to reach maturity. That means you stick around and make sure they get fed. It's most likely that massive amounts of sex dates from the introduction of reliable contraception in the '60s.

    As for flatlining, that has nothing to do with semen. It's all about brain chemicals. Suddenly we cut off the dopamine bombs that we set off with a porn session. Our brains need to find a new sense of balance on less of the happy chemicals.

    I went through a similar flatline when I quit drinking. It's standard issue when you come off a drug or related behavioral addiction (porn, gambling) that causes a chemical change in your brain.

    People here often use fear of semen build up as an excuse for chronic masturbation. From my personal experience (others of course may well differ), masturbation leads to relapse, so for that reason I don't recommend it. Maybe it's OK after a year without porn, but then, sex is so much more fun that I can't see the point, really.
  11. Gary Wilson

    Gary Wilson Active Member

    You are not addressing my comments. Your thesis seems to be: the normal male response to abstaining from masturbation for a month or two is a severe flatline, which involves the loss of libido and the inability to acheive an erection. You also suggested in your earlier thread that abstinence leads to all sorts of hormonal changes.

    If your thesis were true, all the following would have to be false. But they are not.

    1) There is no history of severe flatllines in men who eliminate masturbation. It's not normal. Saying it's normal because it is occurring in young porn users is like saying ED in young men is normal because it's now happening in young porn users. Before 2000 ED rates for men under 40 were 2-3%. Now some studies have it at 30% (for sexually active men), with low libido at 37% (in sexually active men). Is 2% normal or is 33% "normal"?

    2) Flat-lines are not normal. Too many cultures, religions, and situations (boot camp, camping trips, travel, climbing a mountain) have resulted in millions and millions of men not masturbating for at least a month or two. Yet we have never heard of a severe flatline occurring in these men. This alone refutes the claims that flatlines are the normal response to abstinence.

    3) Countless young men enter puberty and never masturbate. Countless more do not masturbate until they are 16 or 17 or later. Why don't all these adolescents experience a flatline and inability to acheive an erection? If a flatline is caused by not masturbating, then all adolescent males would be in a severe flatline until they regularly masturbated. This alone refutes the claim that abstinence leads to a flatline.

    4) You have suggested that the flaline is caused by alterations in the HPA axis or HPG axis. Yet animal and human research finds that abstinence leads to no discernible alterations in circulating hormones, including testosterone. Since rebooters often experience the flatline within the first week or two (as the guy did the link you gave), we would expect an alteration in circulating hormones occurring a week or two into abstinence. But no studies report this. Interestingly, some studies find no difference in tetsoterone level between normal sexually active men and men with chronic ED:

    Study 1 - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7192541
    Circulating levels of testosterone in men with normal sexual function (mean 635 ng/dl) were not significantly different from testosterone values in sexually dysfunctional men

    Study 2 - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17085164#
    In this large population based cohort of older men we found no association among total testosterone, bioavailable testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin and erectile dysfunction.

    Study 3 - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/570382#
    The pituitary testicular system was studied in men with psychogenic impotence. Eight patients with primary erectile impotence age 22--36 years, eight men with secondary erectile impotence age 29--55 years, and 16 men with premature ejaculation age 23--43 years were studied. Statistical analysis revealed no significant differences between patients and normal controls.

    5) I've only seen flat-lines occur in porn users. And long PIED recoveries occur almost exclusively young porn users.

    6) Thousands of young porn users have eliminated porn use, entered a flatline and recovered. If your thesis were true no one would have recovered and every man who attempted a reboot would still be in flatline.

    7) Only an infinitesimally small percentage of men who reboot continue to experience a long, uninterrupted flatline. The percentage of those men who attempt a reboot and who never recover from a flatline appears to be very very small.

    The math: the major forums (YBR, RBN, Nofap.org, r/noffpa, r/porn free, YBOP) together have at least 100,000 visitors a day. Many millions per year. Out of these millions of men only a handful post to say that they have entered a very long flatline and feel unable to recover their from porn-induced sexual problem. These men were chronic porn users, and most are young men who used porn during adolescence.

    You are basing your entire thesis on the far far end of the bell curve: Those few young men, with PIED, who enter a long flatline, and take a very long time to recover from PIED. For your thesis to be true all men who abstain should experience a never ending flatline. Yet, hardly any do. What do those who are taking a very long time to recover have in common? Using internet porn during adolescence.

    8 - History lesson. Men were rebooting in 2006 on my wife's forum. YBOP came online in 2011, as did r/nofap. YBR in 2012. For many years only "older men" rebooted. Almost all did so for sexual problems. They did not experience long flatlines, and it only took 6-8 weeks to regain normal sexual functioning. Things started to change in 2012 when young men, who grew up on internet porn, started to reboot. Only then did we start to see extended recovery periods. Which leads to - Why do long PIED recoveries, with long flatlines, occur almost exclusively in young men who used internet porn during adolescence? If your thesis were correct, older men should take much longer to recover, and should enter longer flatlines. They don't.

    9) Many, if not most of r/nofap members, do not complain about a flatline. Many complain about being too horny. If the flatline were a universal response to abstaining from masturbating all nofappers would be complaining about it.

    10) Masturbation sends some young men (rarely for older men) back into a severe flatline. These same young men wait a few more months, and are then able to masturbate without experiencing a flatline. We would expect the opposite result if your thesis were universally true.

    11) There are guys who did not recover from PIED while still regularly masturbating. When these men switched to no orgasm for a while, they recovered.

    12) Since the 1980's, therapists and sex addiction groups (SA, SLA, etc.) have male "sex addicts" abstain from all sex and masturbation for at least 90 days. Where's all the anecdotes of those men being unable to acheive or becomes sexually excited? I have attended the major conferences (ITAP, SASH) for sex addiction therapists. I have talked to the therapists. There's no indication that "sex addicts" (those men who act out sexually with real people) experience a flatline when they become "sober". It's not part of the yore. Shouldn't all the sex addicts experience a flatline? Yet they don't.

    PS - You continue to ignore the fact that you had a long abstinence from porn and now seem better. Yes, you needed to masturbate, yet that is exactly what has been suggested by YBOP for years in the start here articles, and in faqs. Its even in my PIED video which I did 2 years ago. Attempting masturbation after a period of abstinence is not a hidden secret.

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