6 Years no PMO and still in a flatline!! Need advice.

hello guys please help me i am feeling suicidal everyday. will dopamine or other neurotransmitters heal or i will be depressed forever as i was hardcore porn addict for 15 years when i left porn withdrawals hit me hard i dont know that time 7 years ago what was happening to me i cant sleep at that time, porn was the only solution of my sleep my memory was worst and many other severe symptoms then i went to a doctor and told me about my condition he prescribed me medications ssris, antipsychotics and benzos my receptors were already damaged due to porn and overstimulated dopamine then i had taken medicines on and off for 7 years with many binge relapses between to porn and medicine again and again it damages me further more now its been 18 months since i left ssris and over two years free from antipsychotics and benzos some hours and some days i am feeling same withdrawals as it was before medicines so my question is will my brain neurochemistry heal or i should take medicines for the rest of my life i had done the stupid mistake by taking medicines because of addiction i am 29 years old virgin from india here nobody is understanding about these things and i had not told about my addiction to anyone
please help me

 

Update



So for the last 6 months I have focused on optimising my hormones. I have successfully lowered my oestrogen from 112 pmol/L to 96 pmol/L(41-159), increased my testosterone from 21.7 nmol/L to 22 nmol/L (8.64-29), lowered my SHBG to 50.5 nmol/L (18.3-54.1), and finally increased my free testosterone from 0.33nmol/L to 0.358nmol/L (0.2-0.62). I have felt zero improvement in my libido/ED issues despite my increases and everything being in range now, which conforms to me that my hormones aren’t the issue and have never been. I will still continue naturally optimising my hormones for the purpose of health and well being though. I have also spent considerable times on TRT forums learning about this matter and there are many guys who’ve gone on TRT to become “optimised” and found no improvement in their libido. Studies show that TRT is hit and miss for libido/ED issues, especially above the 8-12 nmol/L mark, which seems to be the range where libido is affected by low T, which I am way above. My loss of libido happened right after I quit porn. For the first year I continued to masturbate without porn stupidly, until I eventually cut that out too. After I quit masturbation I experienced a month or so of libido where I couldn’t make it past seven days without relapsing to MO. Eventually my libido died completely and I haven’t felt it since (9 years. This is a classic case of post acute withdrawal syndrome. Which I have recently learned can take 1-3 years to cure without a single relapse. When I say relapse that means porn or masturbation or orgasm. Maybe even sex without orgasm can keep people in flatlines due to the arousal too. The longest streak I have managed is 15 months without porn, masturbation or sex. I remained in a flatline the entire time and lost hope and relapsed to MO. Thats until I recently came across a couple of guys on reddit who needed 2-3 years pure semen retention to escape the flatline. There’s always a chance that some of us cant recover, but until I go 3 years strict semen retention without relapse I won’t accept that. I currently have a girlfriend, so I’m going to stick with karezza for the time being and try to reach that goal.

 

Thanks for the update.

As for hormome balance here's a good podcast:

Some related discussion to no arousal has occured in this thread: https://yourbrainrebalanced.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-great-dopamine-debate.117898/

Well worth a read. Particularly the second page.

So your EQ(EDIT: meant to say libido, not EQ) is essentially zero . How about erections with your girlfriend? Any morning wood or wet dreams?

Would you be able to link us the reddit posts of guys needing 2-3 years retention?

Goodluck man, time will tell and there's only one way to find out. I'm sure you'll eventually see improvements.

 

Thanks man I'll check out your links. I have zero libido and can achieve only mild erections naturally from arousal, but with ed drugs and or manual stimulation I can get a sufficient erection for a short period of time only. I made a post yesterday and there are links in the post to 4 long PAWS cases: https://yourbrainrebalanced.com/for...porn-and-still-flatlining.117962/#post-711000

 

Any improvements in your situation? How did your girlfriend take your request to go without sex for a long period?

 

Tushar, you are a trooper.

I know a lot of what you have gone through. I have 2 friends who has bipolar or in need of antipsychotic medicine. i am not a doctor and would be careful to give advice, but let me let you in on a little secret which will save your life. Your brain is not suffering from a prozac deficiency, nor is it deficient in ssris. Its deficiency is in nutrients and dopamine, if you are off your psychiatric medication rhen the hardest part is over. You are a soldier becuase you have gotten past the deadly withdrawal of psych meds which are harder to get off then crack or heroine.

Here are 2 resources you have not heard but are there to heal your ED and mental health issue. maybe.

1. Med Free Bipolar by Aspen L Morrow
This title can be changed with Med Free Depression, Anxiety, ADHD

This book will give you foods that help replenish your dopamine like eggs, pardon my hindi but -do anda haroj din lelo. take 2 a day. this book gives foods and a pill that is basically a vitamin for mental health and general health.

if your vegetarian then please reconsider as these foods are needed to heal your brain

other foods listed in book
himalayan pink salt- most mineral dense salt
fish with scales
dark chocolate- less sugar
honey
red cabbage
kombucha
avocado- serotonin

The pill i recommend is different from thenone the book recommends as this I am about to give you the original people who created the micronutrient formula

2. EMpower plus by truehope.
Go to Truehope.com and get their phone number and call their Support Team! they help people transition off psych meds and onto their Empower Plus Pill AND they administer the correct pill amount to nutrate your brain, tell them your diagnosis from the doctor whether it be Major Depression, Bipolar 2, Bipolar 1, Bipolar 1 Rapid Cycling, or whatever it may be and theyll give you the right pill to take from their sources

Oh and the Pill had Zinc so ED wil get better

The creators of the pill had wife commit suicide due to bipolar and his children had problems with it too. So he found out that animals with symptoms of bipolar (i.e. biting ears and toes) were healed when given nutrition.

The same is with humans as our composition is same as certain animals.

Truehope is in Canada.

No porn fantasy & no porn substitutes.

Once you take this pill and food your desire for porn will be less as your brain is getting the good feeling it is asking for. 50 percent of people with bipolar have an addiction associated with their illness.

Once I started taking pill I felt better. But be careful too much micronutrient puts too much zinc in your system, then you get horny, but you have a wife or girlfriend so that solves your transition to problem. But if you have been off psych meds this long it will be easier to transition as if you increase dosage of the vitamin pill the drugs left in your system will be noted as more in your body as your brain rebalanced. The vitamins dont interact with the psych meds in body but when your brain rebalances it says the drugs are more. And its not as simple as taking some vitamin from the store, Empower is chelated and micronized for 96 hrs so that it passes through the fabled BLood Brain Barrier.

There you go, Hope and a warning

Your friend

 

Hi Pornfreesmee, when you say that you have flatline symptoms, what are these exactly? You mention low libido but is there anything else? As someone who has been long term sober, I find that it is natural for the libido to come and go. As I am not acting out sexually, it is not surprising that it lies dormant. However, if I trigger it in some way, its very much apparent. I experimented on and off with MO last year. I found that during the first 4 months of abstinence my libido was strong and then started to wane around month 4. The human body likes rhythms and consistency and I have come to believe that this is the same with sexuality. From what I have read from journals, you need to be able to ease into orgasms again after fasting in the long term to allow the mind and body to adjust again. I haven't seen any evidence that you have to go hard mode for as long as 3 years to readjust the brain to normal sexuality. In the most extreme cases its usually a year at most. After that, the verdict seems to be engage in healthy sexuality with a partner at a gradual pace, starting off with basic intimacy like hugging, holding hands and kissing. The sooner you feel able to do this the better. I would stay away from masturbation completely and just focus on rewiring with your girlfriend when you feel is appropriate.

I personally am a sceptic when it comes to the flatline. I say that not do devalue the experience of other recovering addicts, and only base it on my own long term journey in recovery. I think that it is a simplistic term that describes a number of other conditions such as anxiety and depression, as well as those that are hormonal. I don't like the term as it can be misleading to recovering addicts It gives the impression that they only need to sit tight and stay sober from porn for their symptoms to disappear. If symptoms are persistent in the long term, I would say its a fair chance that it it is an issue unrelated to porn that requires a course of action to be addressed. For example, I fell into the trap of blaming anxiety on addiction withdrawal where as what I needed to do was seek the help of specialists and educate myself. It has been a long journey, and the professional health hasn't provided the quick fix that i was looking for. About a year into recovery I still blamed it on withdrawal because my own research hadn't given me the answers. However, just because you have encountered a block, that doesn't mean that the answers aren't there. I feel now that I have got what I was seeking.

 

My symptoms aren’t just low libido.Upon putting porn all those years ago I was hit with social anxiety, anhedonia and ED/PE (ED caused the PE due to weak erections). These symptoms are all common symptoms of post acute withdrawal syndrome. They happen to people recovering from all types of addictions, not just porn addiction. PAWS=Flatline. I understand and agree that natural libido can fluctuate depending on how recently active sexually you are, and that orgasm in normally functioning people can actually create more of a libido. I guess just like eating can induce more hunger.

 

Just to clarify a couple of details about my situation.



1 - Before quitting porn I did have a couple of sexual failures with women, due to a combination of PIED, performance anxiety and also a couple of the girls I wasn’t really attracted to. I was able to have sex successfully with a few women I was more attracted to though. I’m not sure you understand PIED fully, so I will briefly explain. PIED usually means guys can achieve erections to porn, but not with a partner. Performance anxiety usually means guys can achieve erections on their own, but not with a partner. Before quitting porn I could achieve an erection through masturbation with or without porn and sometimes had issues with partners, but also managed to have sex successfully. I had libido and could experience pleasure from orgasms.





2 - After quitting porn - I lost the ability to get hard through masturbation, porn and sex. This was accompanied with mental symptoms: social anxiety, anhedonia, low focus. AKA= Post acute withdrawal syndrome.



A few other points to make



1 - All brains are different. The amount of time someone has been addicted to porn doesn’t correlate with the amount of time it takes to recover. It’s the same with all addictions. One person can be addicted for 6 months and take 1-3 years to recover, whereas another person addicted for year might recover in 3 months. All brains are different!



2- Whilst I accept that some people have underlying issues and that porn isn’t a cure all, it is reasonable to have expectations to cure symptoms brought on by quitting porn. My story isn’t all that rare if you spend enough time on porn recovery forums and any other forums where guys congregate (TRT forums etc). There have been many guys who’ve quit porn and lost their erectile function after quitting and some experience mental withdrawal systems along with it (myself included).AKA Post acute withdrawal syndrome. I



3 - Yes I’ve already tried 15 months monk mode abstinence without success, but at the time I hadn’t learnt about PAWS and didn’t know that PAWS can take 1-3 years to heal without a single relapse (porn, masturbation, orgasm). I believe I gave up too early because there have been quite a few cases of guys needing much longer. There are four examples in my other thread to prove that. I have a very credible source who has come across recovery stories even longer in porn addiction and other drug addictions.



4 - My ED hasn’t been made better or worse by ED drugs. Yes they do have some nasty side effects and people can become mentally dependant on them, but unless you suffer a priapism then using them shouldn’t cause any physical damage to the penis. In fact I have had many long periods without them when I wasn’t sexual active and I still occasionally experienced fully hard erections in my sleep which proves this. After all this isn’t a blood flow issue. This is a neurological problem.



5 - I think your definition of what healthy male function looks like is not right. A healthy fully functioning man without PIED or suffering from PAWS should: Have a libido/sexual drive that compels him to pursue partners for sex or to masturbate, be able to achieve a full erection from sexual arousal, be able to keep an erection long enough to use a condom and not have to rush so his erection won’t go down, be able to achieve a full erection from masturbation if he wishes and feel great pleasure from orgasms. Of course performance anxiety could still face a healthy young man, but in that case he would have a libido and be able to achieve erections from masturbation still and only sometimes have issues with partners. I know what normal sexual function is because I’ve experienced it for myself, and I’ve confirmed this with reading flatline success stories and also speaking to people in real life. Compare this to my current sexual function without ED drugs: Unable/very difficult to achieve erection from masturbation, Zero libido/sexual drive, can only maintain erection for less than 30 seconds without stimulation, weak/low pleasure orgasm even when full hard, difficult time getting fully hard from arousal to have sex, hyper sensitivity (PE) unless erection is >80%hard. This is not normal sexual function for a healthy 29 year old man.



6 - I’m not obsessed with my ED and I don’t think about it all the time. In fact I’ve gone through long periods taking the ED drugs where I just masked the symptoms and forgot all about it.



7 - Whilst I have had a lot sexual experiences since quitting porn, none of them have been truly pleasurable experiences due the the weak arousal and low pleasure orgasm Ive experienced. The best sexual experiences I’ve had in my life were the ones before quitting porn when I had a libido, no ED and could experience full pleasure from an orgasm. Nothing to do with girls who I slept with either because I’ve been with some very attractive women since quitting.



I hope this clears up your confusion with my story.

 

Thank you for your answer. In many ways you're right ... Unfortunately having sex with viagra is like pmo ing. I have of years delayed ejaculation, from orgasm i need sexual fantesies its not ok its like pmo ing. But dead dick feeling for me its wery frustating, i feel my dick is disconected to brain, no spontanuous erections no or week morning wood, no feeling .. For me its very unusual feelig all my life my dick feel of part of me i feel it evry second, like a finger.. I make erection whitout erotic or manual stimulation. Its working fine never have any problem in sex.
And suddenly everything collapsed in a few months from the first problem what i feel it I woke up in today's situation.
I'm sure pmo brought me into this situation. I m today in 4 month of hardmode and don't feel any changes . I m from romania.

 

I don't feel any improvement.. 4 month of hardmode.. Sporadic morning wood 1 time per week lost in seconds after waking up. No spontanuous erection, My girlfriend accept this situation, i don't undestrstand why stay with me.
Maybe it would be easier alone.
It's not right for her what was happening, it was my mistake now I feel bad because of her.This shit it uncurable or single way it is the abstinance..for months or years.. I don't have any idea.

 

My sexual function was like that before taking any ED drugs after I quit porn. I've spent at least 5 years out of the last ten not taking ED drugs. ED drugs didn't cause this. Quitting porn did!

 

I would be interested in seeing Gary's reasoning for this statement. He said himself that we don't have that many studies looking into the issue and that includes studies long enough that can prove definitively that some people do not heal. Another point to consider is that the brain is highly plastic even post adolescence. I have a lot of respect for Gary- after all I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for him. However, I find that this is a very pessimistic statement to make that would cause addicts to question what the point is of giving up porn in the first place. I am taking this with a pinch of salt personally.

 

Thank you for going into more detail for me. I am aware of the PAWS well as I researched extensively the possible explanations what I was going through during my own difficult time coming off porn. The trouble is that the symptoms of PAWS overlap with many other conditions. Those you have listed, with the exception of sexual dysfunction (though this isn't always the case), are typical signs of anxiety and depression, which is very common among addicts of all kinds. I am open to the idea that porn can be the cause of negative symptoms and am willing to take the accounts of recovering addicts at face value on this. However, by these accounts the symptoms tend to disappear within 2 years of recovery. Now there might be a possibility that you do belong to this category of addicts and through masturbation you have delayed the healing time, but I personally think that this is a small possibility. Its still worth dropping MO entirely for, though. For a lot of addicts, including myself, we belong to a different category and follow a traditional trend in addiction that we used porn as a means of escape from much deeper issues. Sometimes its a physical health condition. It is often the case that this type of addict will continue to report difficulties some time after they have quit porn. I know that you have stated that you only noticed the symptoms you have described when quitting porn, but it is often the case that when their primary means of escape is taken away from them that only then do recovering addicts recognise the ugliness underneath. It personally took me a few years to develop the emotional intelligence that I deprived myself of in my adolescent years to understand what was going on.

 

Thanks for sharing these even though they may be even more depressing than my story haha. It’s hard to be sure because these guys didn’t make it fully clear, but I strongly suspect from reading them that neither of them did 3 years without porn, masturbation and orgasm uninterrupted . Remember that going 3 years pure abstinence is different than going on multiple 6 months streaks of no orgasm adding up to 3 years total, even if they stayed clear of porn and masturbation the whole time. Ive seen many stories like this and they all share that in common, but not as severe as these ones. My observations

Case 1 - My observations - To quote - “ Also, I've attempted multiple times to rewire with real girl all of which have been unsuccessful. Again, when I say I try to rewire I mean being in a LTR with someone who knows about what's going on and has worked with me dozens of times to help me rewire. And just for clarification, this was after years of no PMO/MO.” This guy attempted sex frequently attempting to rewire, so its logical to assume he had orgasms from sex. He also claims to have been abstinent for years from PMO/O for years before, but we don’t know if that was 2 years or 3. My guess would be 2 and we don’t know that he didn’t have sex during this time also. 3 years pure abstinence is the only way to say for sure you’re incurable in my opinion.

Case 2 - My observations - To quote “In the beginning I mo'd a few times and have had a few orgasms with girls but 90% of the time complete hard mode. Never once watched porn in last 4 years.” He had orgasms with girls quite a few times, so it's very likely he interrupted his streak and possibly never did more than a year complete celibacy.

I’ve directly messaged them both on rebootnation to clarify the details, but they may not get back to me since they’ve not been active for while. The attitude is very much rewiring focused on Rebootnation, so they may have not thought sex with orgasm as an interruption, so didn’t mention it. If you have any more stories like these please share them because I’m convinced that hard cases need 2-3 years without interruption. No porn, no masturbation, no orgasm and maybe even no sex/arousal.

 

No problem. I completely agree it would be much quicker to have this conversation in real life. You seem to have a good level of English even with using google translate. Im also trying to learn a new language! Its never too late haha. Maybe I’ll take you up on that offer someday Same goes to you if you ever visit the U.K.



PAWS doesn’t necessarily have to come in waves. Some people experience constant withdrawal like the cases I provided and others experience more ups and downs. All brains are different remember.

 

I’m well aware of all the ideas and concepts from YBP. I’ve also read the book, which is essentially the simplified version of the site. I have watched the video and there isn’t anything in there that I’m not already aware of. I have nearly ten years experience on recovery forums, which is what I base the following opinion on.

I don’t believe in the concept of rewiring, and don’t believe sexual conditioning during adolescence is the cause for many guys not being able to recover. Three reasons why:


1- There have been many older guys who didn’t grow up watching high speed porn who are in the same position as me. A few of which have needed 18 months pure sexual abstinence to recover. Many others are in a seemingly permanent flatline/withdrawal like me.


2 - We’ve also seen younger guys who grew up with high speed porn and watched it during their adolescence recover fully within 3 months.


3 - If the theory that we trained our brains to only respond to porn sexual cues that we learnt during adolescence was true and we are now stuck with them, then me and many of the other hard cases would have no problem responding to porn right? After all we spent our adolescence wiring to porn cues? Wrong: I and others like me don’t respond to watching porn since we quit. We are instead in a state of withdrawal. AKA- Post acute withdrawal syndrome. There are cases of guys who wired during the full adolescent period with short and full recoveries to further disprove it.

 

No problem. I understand what you're saying and I definitely don't blame porn for all my problems. In fact I've fixed the root causes that likely lead to my addiction in the first place, but I'm still stuck with symptoms of quitting (PAWS). There is a chance that I may never solve this, which I'm fully prepared for, but I'm not ready to give up just yet. I'm convinced that orgasms from sex and masturbation without porn keep people like me in seemingly permanent withdrawal.

 

I am always happy to help if I can. I refuse to believe whatever you are going through that there isn't a solution at the bottom of it. Maybe its simply a matter of time. If I was in your position, I would cover all possibilities. Cut out the MO for a long period of time just in case you are going through something PAWS related, but also keep an open mind and do what you can to find out the possible explanations for what you are going through and their suggested remedies. Keep us posted. By the way, I am also from the UK.

These posts don't share the full story for sure. They also don't account for any possible underlying health conditions at work. What I found most interesting is in case 1 where the guy shared that he was able to have successful sex for a short while but apparently over did it with the O's. Its an experience that echoes a lot of reports on these forums. It seems that when a recovering addict attempts to rewire to normal sex, they need to do it gradually and allow time for the body to catch up. They ultimately have to listen to themselves and prepare to apply the breaks when need be.

I did watch the video. As I have stated in my previous post, I dispute his reasoning that these guys are apparently incurable. In order to ascertain this, you would have to conduct an in-depth study analyzing numerous factors in the long term before coming to a conclusion. Such as study, to my knowledge, doesn't exist. As I have indicated in my above reply to Pornfreesme, there are methodological flaws to relying on recovery accounts as well as taking on board what someone says at face value.

 

What video are you talking about? Could you share a link?